Catalonia one step closer to independence

[hellheaven1987]

Nationalists in the Spanish region of Catalonia are set to win in regional elections, exit polls suggest.

TV3 said the ruling CiU party could secure up to 57 seats - far short of an absolute majority. In second place was left-wing ERC - with up to 23 seats.

Both are nationalists keen to hold a referendum on whether the region should break away from the rest of Spain.

Madrid says Catalan nationalists are looking for excuses after nearly running out of money.

Catalan President Artur Mas called early elections amid a funding row with the central government; it says he is trying to exploit the economic crisis.

Source

So as some of you remember, two months ago there was a Catalonia independent rally that saw more than one million people showed up, so yes there are quite some supporters of Catalonia independent movement in Spain nowadays. It also seems that because of the further encouragement of the coming Scottish independent referendum in 2014, many Catalonia political parties are using the promising independent referendum to gain the support of voters. Whatever it is, it seems the anti-independent parties have little chance to hold a meaningful amount of seats in Catalonia parliament now, as both CiU and ERC are pro-independent party, so if both parties work together in future, a Catalonia independent referendum may become quite possible.

Which sucks for Madrid government consider its poor economy now; not to mention such referendum may encourage other local nationalism, such as Basque which the Basque nationalists also won a majority in its local parliament last month.

[Papay]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20482719

According to the results Artur Mas losses some seats but overall pro - separatist parties win two thirds of the votes. I am curious to see if the current government party that rules Catalonia was bluffing on the issue of independence or if it will push the matter more. Madrid's constitution wont recognize the right of independence though

[Werety]

Artur Mas it has to agree with the separatists, in case that did not serious its political suicide.

These elections have gone bad, separatist parties have their say in deciding the future, now is the discussion is with that couple dances CIU.

PD. Salutacions a tots els Catalans del forum !

[King Gambrinus]

Unfortunately, all they can hope for is devolution powers. Secession is illegal under the Spanish constitution, so it'll take an epic revolution to secede from Spain, which I don't see these guys doing. For me, the way forward is not to create a series of tiny nation-states, but rather restore a Spanish Republic with confederate powers to the communities.


Having a centre-right nationalist party that based its agenda on economic problems suggests to me that this is a crisis vote instead of a proper seperatist feeling from overlords.

[Vítor Gaspar]

Unfortunately, all they can hope for is devolution powers. Secession is illegal under the Spanish constitution, so it'll take an epic revolution to secede from Spain, which I don't see these guys doing. For me, the way forward is not to create a series of tiny nation-states, but rather restore a Spanish Republic with confederate powers to the communities.

Not only epic revolutions no longer take place, but central governments also don't want them any more. At all. The losses are just too great. So they rather not risk themselves to that.

As such, the moment the Catalans rise and demand something from Madrid, Madrid will back down.

As someone living in Iberia, I don't see this as a good thing. I fear for what this may mean for the Catalans, the Spanish and the Europeans.

I have left a much more elaborated opinion on the Portuguese thread, but it sums up to this:

The economic consequences of a Catalan independence will be devastating. The Spanish state will likely start to crumble, and soon the Basques (by far the most radical of all Spaniard) and the Galicians would follow the same way.

Catalonia is severely dependent on a financial sector. Its GDP is mostly made up of that, plus other economic sectors that are seriously tied with Spain. An independent Catalonia would face massive capital flight and the economy would be massively misplaced. They are not thinking straight.

Artur Mas also commented that Catalonia has everything to be independent because Portugal has roughly the same GDP and a comparable territory. That is true, indeed, but Portugal is a country because it had centuries to make its institutions work and has a background. Catalonia's background is hidden behind the 17th century. Building an administration in a couple of years, and without any real backup (no country will help them) behind it, will be complicated.

Moreover, a country needs international recognition to be a country. I can't see a single European country siding with Catalonia, to be honest. Not even slightly pariah countries like Russia. In fact, they were the first country to publicly denounce Catalonia (for obvious reasons - Chechnia and all that).

Then there are the usual suspects like Portugal - but even that, at least the government, will never support Catalonia for the time being. The backlash would be enormous and Portugal, if anything, has been a great ally in supporting Spain's integrity in the last century (because Lisbon feels Spain's integrity is beneficial for Portugal).

So a great number of Portuguese may support the Catalans, but never the Portuguese state. And I'd say that's where the Catalan movement has more public support.

Honestly, I hope Madrid goes ahead with a Spanish Federation and a public referendum on the status of the King takes place. May we have a Spanish Republic again.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

The economic consequences of a Catalan independence will be devastating. The Spanish state will likely start to crumble, and soon the Basques (by far the most radical of all Spaniard) and the Galicians would follow the same way.

The Basque are not Spaniards they are an indegous people that settled the era in pre-historic times and have their own unique non-Indoeuropean language. Some say the Basques may just be the last remaining Neanderthals, time will tell.

[torongill]

Some say the Basques may just be the last remaining Neanderthals, time will tell.

From looking at the mug-shots of the ETA "activists", I have to say that theory looks very well-founded

[RedGuard]

The Basque are not Spaniards they are an indegous people that settled the era in pre-historic times and have their own unique non-Indoeuropean language. Some say the Basques may just be the last remaining Neanderthals, time will tell.

there deffenietly not neanderthals and just because they are not 'spainards' whatever that means doesnt mean they need to have thier own country. IMO when a country is formed soley along ethnic lines its never good for anyone.

[Sphere]

Unfortunately, all they can hope for is devolution powers. Secession is illegal under the Spanish constitution, so it'll take an epic revolution to secede from Spain, which I don't see these guys doing. For me, the way forward is not to create a series of tiny nation-states, but rather restore a Spanish Republic with confederate powers to the communities.

I agree. A 3rd Federal Spanish Republic modeled on the successful Federal Republic of Germany would be best for all people in the current Kingdom of Spain.

The main change would be that the individual "states" would have the power to raise and keep their own funds to run the "state" government, instead of the current situation where all revenues have to go first to Madrid.

[King Gambrinus]

I agree. A 3rd Federal Spanish Republic modeled on the successful Federal Republic of Germany would be best for all people in the current Kingdom of Spain.

The main change would be that the individual "states" would have the power to raise and keep their own funds to run the "state" government, instead of the current situation where all revenues have to go first to Madrid.

It also helps on a cultural level as well as financial. How on earth are Catalans supposed to be integrated with Castillan Spain when the national anthem is still the March of the Real? It's as if they've forgotten what Franco did during the Civil War.

I'm fairly sure a lot of Castillans are no longer Spanish Nationalists. You only have to look at Vallecas in Madrid to see that Republican Spain is still in many people's hearts and minds. It would also provide a good platform for strong reform and a new wave of positivity, which Spain desperately needs right now.

I'm hoping the surge of the Republican Left in Catalonia spreads all across the country.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

I really hope Catalunia finally gets their indepence, then I wish Navarra get their too

[RedGuard]

I really hope Catalunia finally gets their indepence, then I wish Navarra get their too

why? it would mean even more economic problems for those regions and spain. thats the last thing that needs to happen right now. one step backwards from a level 1 civilization.

[Col. Tartleton]

why? it would mean even more economic problems for those regions and spain. thats the last thing that needs to happen right now. one step backwards from a level 1 civilization.

A few points:

A Level 1 Civilization is about harnessing an entire planet's available energy.

It has nothing to do with a world government. Nor are either of those things a realistic objective.

The forces which pulled the Spanish together and held them together are the same ones which are pulling them apart. It's all about nationalism. It doesn't matter. This sort of thing is cyclical. There will be impulses to unify similar groups and then once amassed the old differences will pull them apart.

[RedGuard]

A few points:

A Level 1 Civilization is about harnessing an entire planet's available energy.

It has nothing to do with a world government. Nor are either of those things a realistic objective.

The forces which pulled the Spanish together and held them together are the same ones which are pulling them apart. It's all about nationalism. It doesn't matter. This sort of thing is cyclical. There will be impulses to unify similar groups and then once amassed the old differences will pull them apart.

but in order to harness an entire planets resources as a species wouldn't you agree one or a few governments would be necessary not even more tiny countries that have no power and get abused by the larger ones?

lol when i proofread that for some reason i was speaking with Dr.Breens voice

[Claudius Gothicus]

Political and Administrative fragmentation in a world of deepening cultural and economic globalization... this ''independence movement'' is just one of those reactions that will fade away as soon as the Spanish GDP starts growing once again, the question is: Are Catalas stupid enough to get their own country so fast that they'll regret it later? or more specifically, getting their own country and then regretting it once the Spanish Economy is stabilized?

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20482719
Madrid's constitution wont recognize the right of independence though

The UN in regards to Gibraltar and Fawklands and Scotland allows country's to vote for what they want to rule them.So Barcelona should be the same.Freedom from the Spanish tyrant king.Long live the rep of Messi

[NotYetRegistered]

Was there a majority wish for independance before the crisis?

Because, to be honest, I don't respect a wish for independance if it's strength is born out of the economic situation. There are exceptions of course, but it just seems kind of greedy.

[Lуra]

As a Catalan:



We need this more.

~Lyra

[Boicote]

As a Catalan:



We need this more.

So...you need more...gay marriage?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm kidding . I know this is the flag of the Spanish Republic .

[Almogaver]

As a Catalan:



We need this more.

~Lyra

No way! We're through with trying to change Spain, we won't fall for it again. We need a state of or own in order to survive and there will be a referendum thanks to Sunday's results.