Amazon: Total War 7.0 Release

[Spartan198]

Why would anyone want to be Greek after they played Amazon?

Sometimes we just gotta put those little hussies in their place: The kitchen.

Feel free to forward me any suggestion as to the replacement.

Well, there's the Greek unit pack from Myth: Total War, that would add some cool units: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...k-from-myth_tw

Or Conquistador's Greeks, if you would prefer something less romanticized for the period: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...E-FOR-DOWNLOAD (although he's only made a few units so far)

Rarity also made some awesome Greek units: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ousel-Boutique

Another source is, of course, XGM since Dime is pretty easy-going about others using his work, which is tops in quality.

PS:Love your signature

The way I have my favorite mods arranged out and linked to or the RIP wishes for Calvin and TosaInu?

Either way, thanks.

[Spartan198]

Well, many of us only go to the kitchen for our puppies. And only if they follow those "sit down, roll over, fetch" commands very well.

I make sure to teach my girlfriends all those commands, too.

1. Spartan actually has excellent cavalry (the hippeis), its tactics conceived and implemented by Agesilaus, King of Sparta. The Spartan cavalry can defeat Thessalian cavalry which was one of the best cavalry units at the time.
3. and how about Thessalian cavalry? The most renowned cavalry of ancient Greece. I know RS II has them but hardly realistic (it uses Spartan Kopis for weapon)

I certainly wouldn't mind an expanded cavalry roster of "themed" units. As for the kopis, I think its use is accurate enough since by the time of Alexander, it had started eclipsing the xiphos as the most commonly used sword by both cavalry and infantry.

2. Xenophon described an oxen drawn battle wagon with towers, it was quoted that Cyrus was telling Xenophon if he has such oxen-drawn battle wagons for his field army, it would be of immense help.

I've never heard of this, I'll have to look it up.

4. Dionysius I of Syracuse deployed flame thrower in battle.

If you consider GlobalSecurity.org to be a reliable source, it says that incendiary weapons were used as early as 1200 BC and that one of the first flame projectors consisted of a hollow tree trunk which had an attached basin full of glowing coals, sulfur and pitch. A bellows blew the flame in the form of a jet, setting fire to enemy fortifications. It doesn't give many other details, though.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ry-history.htm

About the signature...

Because you have the Amazon Total War in it.

Well, it is one of my favorite mods.

[parthian shot]

"...I make sure to teach my girlfriends all those commands, too..."

You mean you will make sure that they learn how to use these commands, right?

"...I certainly wouldn't mind an expanded cavalry roster of "themed" units. As for the kopis, I think its use is accurate enough since by the time of Alexander, it had started eclipsing the xiphos as the most commonly used sword by both cavalry and infantry..."

I wish to compare the notes I have, because I have examined Alexander Era work. So I just want to point our that all Alexandrian Era arts or reliefs or its known duplicates (not post era works) all show himself as well as his soldiers around him wearing the Xiphos swords or scabbard indicating that they are carrying xiphos swords, not kopis swords. So it would be interesting if you can share your notes and hopefully we can all benefit from this information exchange.

"...it says that incendiary weapons were used as early as 1200 BC..."
Yes, there are quite a bit of records about incendiary weapons from these periods, but I am specifically interested in the liquid fire Syracusans used to defeat the Greeks.

"...Well, it is one of my favorite mods...."
Thank you so much!

I make sure to teach my girlfriends all those commands, too.


I certainly wouldn't mind an expanded cavalry roster of "themed" units. As for the kopis, I think its use is accurate enough since by the time of Alexander, it had started eclipsing the xiphos as the most commonly used sword by both cavalry and infantry.


I've never heard of this, I'll have to look it up.


If you consider GlobalSecurity.org to be a reliable source, it says that incendiary weapons were used as early as 1200 BC and that one of the first flame projectors consisted of a hollow tree trunk which had an attached basin full of glowing coals, sulfur and pitch. A bellows blew the flame in the form of a jet, setting fire to enemy fortifications. It doesn't give many other details, though.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ry-history.htm


Well, it is one of my favorite mods.

[parthian shot]

Spartan198,

This is just a separate post to discuss the Xiphos (straight or leave shape blade for cutting or stabbing) vs. Kopis (forward curved blade for cutting) in the Alexander Era.

Instead of me posting personal pictures, here are some public pictures specifically showing the Alexander Sarcophagus (for people who are not familiar with the term, it is not the sarcophagus with Alexander in it, but a sarcophagus created at the time of Alexander The Great [4th Century BC], showing Alexander and his soldiers engaging in battles and hunting).

Although there is no sword shown, all the sword scabbards shown are design to carry sword with narrow and straight blade for stabbing and cutting, or part of the relief showing the warrior wielding the sword stabbing his foe and therefore, not likely at all using a kopis but a Xiphos sword.

18+ only, yes, even for a 2,300 years old wall relief.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here is color re-pro of the same. Again 18+ only

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here is a cavalry soldier wearing his sword on the left hand side. Note the straightness of the scabbard


Here is a soldier with Hoplon shield and notice the straightness of his scabbard too.


Here is the yotube video showing the same sarcophagus

"...I make sure to teach my girlfriends all those commands, too..."

You mean you will make sure that they learn how to use these commands, right?

"...I certainly wouldn't mind an expanded cavalry roster of "themed" units. As for the kopis, I think its use is accurate enough since by the time of Alexander, it had started eclipsing the xiphos as the most commonly used sword by both cavalry and infantry..."

I wish to compare the notes I have, because I have examined Alexander Era work. So I just want to point our that all Alexandrian Era arts or reliefs or its known duplicates (not post era works) all show himself as well as his soldiers around him wearing the Xiphos swords or scabbard indicating that they are carrying xiphos swords, not kopis swords. So it would be interesting if you can share your notes and hopefully we can all benefit from this information exchange.

"...it says that incendiary weapons were used as early as 1200 BC..."
Yes, there are quite a bit of records about incendiary weapons from these periods, but I am specifically interested in the liquid fire Syracusans used to defeat the Greeks.

"...Well, it is one of my favorite mods...."
Thank you so much!

[Spartan198]

You mean you will make sure that they learn how to use these commands, right?

Something like that, yeah.

I wish to compare the notes I have, because I have examined Alexander Era work. So I just want to point our that all Alexandrian Era arts or reliefs or its known duplicates (not post era works) all show himself as well as his soldiers around him wearing the Xiphos swords or scabbard indicating that they are carrying xiphos swords, not kopis swords. So it would be interesting if you can share your notes and hopefully we can all benefit from this information exchange.

I was actually using EB as my reference since the majority of their Greek units, especially horsemen, use the kopis instead, IIRC. But if you have proof to the contrary, I concede to it.

[parthian shot]

Something like that, yeah.


I was actually using EB as my reference since the majority of their Greek units, especially horsemen, use the kopis instead, IIRC. But if you have proof to the contrary, I concede to it.

Such gentlemanly words for a simple information exchange!

I was actually looking far and wide for paintings, sculptures, wall relief, anything from that period to see if there are kopis swords in those period artifacts long before our chat about it.
Now to more serious topic, what did you do in the kitchen today?

[Spartan198]

Such gentlemanly words for a simple information exchange!

There's a reason Subrosa had us acting as diplomats for the Amazons before you came along.

Now to more serious topic, what do you do in the kitchen today?

Just warming up the remains of dinner that was cooked for me earlier tonight while I watched Netflix.

[wheeliepaul]

5. I know the trick to start the scrypt (I read all the messages) but still the Geothe have soon the three cities beneath Tanais and then start to conquer very fast. I even start a new game today and was just testing this issue. I choose the far east celts and start to press the next turn button. After 20-30 turns they had 4 cities and three full armies and 1 big fleet. I also noticed the save game button was greyed out like mentioned earlier for the lybian amazon. Later on I started a new campaign with amazonia and here also the save game button was greyed out.

7. hear you can read that there were more Celtic female leaders: http://www.celtlearn.org/pdfs/women.pdf

13. I would say a new unit, maybe female slingers or a finnic archer look a like unit something like that

14. Sounds good to me

[parthian shot]

5. The gray out "save game" button indicates the script did not execute completely.

So looks like the mod team needs to address this problem more thoroughly, Celestial Shuttle Buddy will be looking into this problem.

7. Thanks for posting the pdf file, I have read it. And not trying to be legalistic about the paper, but the paper itself stated that the iron age (Western) Celt is patriarchal society, even though the Celtic women had far more freedom and rights than their Greco-Roman counterpart. The issue is, beside Baudica, most sources (including this PDF file) can only quote from legend.
We can argue the Amazons are legend too, and as were Troy. But at the least the legend is substantiated with archaeological findings. Without archaeological work and anthropological extrapolation, it would be difficult to create the animation and models accurately by the mod team, as none of us can proceed with fictional work from complete imagination.

13. I will initiate that change for the next release.

14. We will see if we can add the Amazon or Sarmatian Widows to the mod.

5. I know the trick to start the scrypt (I read all the messages) but still the Geothe have soon the three cities beneath Tanais and then start to conquer very fast. I even start a new game today and was just testing this issue. I choose the far east celts and start to press the next turn button. After 20-30 turns they had 4 cities and three full armies and 1 big fleet. I also noticed the save game button was greyed out like mentioned earlier for the lybian amazon. Later on I started a new campaign with amazonia and here also the save game button was greyed out.

7. hear you can read that there were more Celtic female leaders: http://www.celtlearn.org/pdfs/women.pdf

13. I would say a new unit, maybe female slingers or a finnic archer look a like unit something like that

14. Sounds good to me

[parthian shot]

Just checked out the Amazonia, the save-game button does not turn gray in the tests we tried.
I double checked the testing results and concur with that. This does not mean the problem does not exist, but we just have not figured out the correct way to replicate it.

The good news is that, at the least we don't have the gray-out problem all the time with Amazonia, it seems.

5. The gray out "save game" button indicates the script did not execute completely.

So looks like the mod team needs to address this problem more thoroughly, Celestial Shuttle Buddy will be looking into this problem.

7. Thanks for posting the pdf file, I have read it. And not trying to be legalistic about the paper, but the paper itself stated that the iron age (Western) Celt is patriarchal society, even though the Celtic women had far more freedom and rights than their Greco-Roman counterpart. The issue is, beside Baudica, most sources (including this PDF file) can only quote from legend.
We can argue the Amazons are legend too, and as were Troy. But at the least the legend is substantiated with archaeological findings. Without archaeological work and anthropological extrapolation, it would be difficult to create the animation and models accurately by the mod team, as none of us can proceed with fictional work from complete imagination.

13. I will initiate that change for the next release.

14. We will see if we can add the Amazon or Sarmatian Widows to the mod.

[wheeliepaul]

Today I test the Geoth amazon with huge unit size instead of large which I normally play and then it takes a longer time before they get strong armies. Also the save game button did work now.
Every time you start a new campaign and quit the game there is this message: script Error in AmazonsTW-Recalesced/data/world/maps/campaign/barbarian.invasion/descr-strat.text, at line 5003, column 121. You have choosen an invalid tile (170,140) for Aryleia (dacia)

[Anfindol]

That error message is generated because at campaign set-up there is a Goethe General in a ship, and the engine is perturbed by it. It's fine, you learn to ignore it.

An option for Hellenistic female berserkers could be the Maenads/Bacchae:

penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/greece/hetairai/maenad.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad

Or perhaps a war-dog unit re-skinned as panthers would be fun.


On the subject of unit cards, I have noticed that the Mercenary Camel Riders ( encountered by Libyans ) and the Thermodon General, Elephant, War and Armoured Elephants all have generic peasant illustrations on their unit cards. Also, Thermodon has a Temple of Hekate for 3 levels that becomes Temple of Victory for the last few levels with #PLACEHOLDER TEXT. Below it is the comlete line for Temple of Ares, which has the same benefits and is, I presume, the building line being reworked.
Right, back on the road to India....

That reminds me - I think the Pathfinders should take at least 2 turns to recruit, they are so powerful. Two mounted Pathfinders, a Goethe Elephant and a general can do anything. A couple of Mounted Pathfinders and I can wreck and drive off most AI infantry-heavy forces.

[parthian shot]

Sorry, I was having problem logging in.

...An option for Hellenistic female berserkers could be the Maenads/Bacchae...

This is a great suggestion! And perhaps we can also add that to the Thracian faction.

...Or perhaps a war-dog unit re-skinned as panthers would be fun...

In the 6.0B development, we did have a tiger unit, but the animation proved unreliable so it was never added to the release. This is a great idea though.

...On the subject of unit cards...

Thanks for the findings, I will pass this to the testing volunteers to see if the problems are still there or already corrected.

...Pathfinder should take at least 2 turns to recruit...

There were three choices on balancing the advanced units:
1. Increase their recruitment cost
2. Increase the time to train them
3. Reduce the size of their units
The Geothe Noble Maidens has gone to the second route and that makes sense as they are drawn from mostly raw recruits.
And the Ballista Elephant is similar.
On the topic of Pathfinder, however, they should be readily available in all Amazon territories, but in what quantity is the question. And also their equipment is not difficult to procure.
So instead of taking multiple turns, I am inclined to either increase their recruitment cost, or reduce their unit size. Please feel free to let us know what you think.


As for 7.0D release, we might make the cavalry more difficult to recruit in regions without horses. So the mounted Pathfinders may not be available in most regions.

That error message is generated because at campaign set-up there is a Goethe General in a ship, and the engine is perturbed by it. It's fine, you learn to ignore it.


An option for Hellenistic female berserkers could be the Maenads/Bacchae:


penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/greece/hetairai/maenad.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad


Or perhaps a war-dog unit re-skinned as panthers would be fun.




On the subject of unit cards, I have noticed that the Mercenary Camel Riders ( encountered by Libyans ) and the Thermodon General, Elephant, War and Armoured Elephants all have generic peasant illustrations on their unit cards. Also, Thermodon has a Temple of Hekate for 3 levels that becomes Temple of Victory for the last few levels with #PLACEHOLDER TEXT. Below it is the comlete line for Temple of Ares, which has the same benefits and is, I presume, the building line being reworked.
Right, back on the road to India....


That reminds me - I think the Pathfinders should take at least 2 turns to recruit, they are so powerful. Two mounted Pathfinders, a Goethe Elephant and a general can do anything. A couple of Mounted Pathfinders and I can wreck and drive off most AI infantry-heavy forces.

[wheeliepaul]

Tigers I like that, hope to see them soon.

the Maenads/Bacchae sounds good

Maybe there is a fourth option in balancing the advanced units by giving them less thermite missiles. After these thermite missiles they get normal missiles or none. If not possible I would say reduce the size of them because like Anfindol said before with 4 of these units you beat every other army. According to me it's to easy to capture the quest cities rome for libyan, halicarnassus for amazonia and tanais for thyssa which give you to much advantage. After capturing such a city you become several of the strongest units. And a few turns later again when you find the temple. If you know these cities you can capture them in a few turns.

I also noticed that there are no more (or less) bare asses. I must say the units look great after the upgrade but I loved those asses they where great.
The skin color differs with some units in a faction. Sometimes they have a very light skin colour. For example the amazonia heave peltast and the far east celts militia woman infantry.

[parthian shot]

Tigers I like that, hope to see them soon.

the Maenads/Bacchae sounds good

Maybe there is a fourth option in balancing the advanced units by giving them less thermite missiles. After these thermite missiles they get normal missiles or none. If not possible I would say reduce the size of them because like Anfindol said before with 4 of these units you beat every other army. According to me it's to easy to capture the quest cities rome for libyan, halicarnassus for amazonia and tanais for thyssa which give you to much advantage. After capturing such a city you become several of the strongest units. And a few turns later again when you find the temple. If you know these cities you can capture them in a few turns.

I also noticed that there are no more (or less) bare asses. I must say the units look great after the upgrade but I loved those asses they where great.
The skin color differs with some units in a faction. Sometimes they have a very light skin colour. For example the amazonia heave peltast and the far east celts militia woman infantry.

Tiger was an attempt in 6.0, but was not working, so I am not sure when it can be made available, not to mention the game engine can only allow two types of animal handler+beast type of units. In the vanilla RTW, these were the dogs and the pigs. Future Amazon Total War release has a new type unit to replace the pig. So to add the tiger, we would have to remove the dogs.

As for the Pathfinder, another option is to make the projectile less accurate, but it is very subtle because even a tiny adjustment would ended up with the thermite jars flying all over the place and hit only two or three enemies with thousands of jars thrown at them. Currently, the projectile parameters reflect correctly what the the thermite jar's accuracy is supposed to be. And the current setting is not accurate at all, with a great deal of long range misses, but most effective at mid-range and close-range.
Originally, the plan is to have the unit firing two different projectiles (the thermite jar and the iron encased lead cylinder), but the game engine can not handle it, and we have not yet to come up with a way to get around the problem.

Regarding the bare-behinds, the only reason the model was used this way was because it is the best animation model we were able to deploy at the time. It is more anthropological to have both front and back loin cloths, and these really should have been animal pelts, not woven cloths. Again, the mod is not about adult entertainment, but trying to show (emphasize trying) what Amazon should be like from the anthropological points of view.
If you have any historical, archaeological, or anthropological data to support front loin cloth only thesis, I would be glad to revert back to the previous arrangement, because the addition of the back loin cloth is a major drain on the number of polygons to render.

[Celestial shuttle buddy]

This is to update on the problems reported by WheeliePaul and Anfindol,

I have corrected the temple of victory issues and the changes will go through the testing to be released.
The camel rider's lance in the unit card is the correct portrait, because the rider is a demi-lancer, meaning, her stand-off weapon (as Parthian Shot is so fond of saying) is a bow, but her close-in weapon is a lance.


Parthian Shot and her partner are working on the units update for the rest of the report.

[parthian shot]

Per WheeliePaul's suggestion, just created the

Meroe Kentake Guard
Kentake's Companion Chariots

Meroe being the ancient culture/tribe of Sudan, famous for their Warrior Queens. In case the reader is not sure, Kentake means the Queen.

Like WP said, the charioteers do look like they came out of the Gladiator movie.

[parthian shot]

Per WheeliePaul's suggestion, just created the

Meroe Kentake Guard
Kentake's Companion Chariots

Meroe being the ancient culture/tribe of Sudan, famous for their Warrior Queens. In case the reader is not sure, Kentake means the Queen.

Like WP said, the charioteers do look like they came out of the Gladiator movie.

You can see the new Meroe units at the screen shot thread [here]

[wheeliepaul]

I even read that one of their warriors queen faced Aelxander the great sitting on the back of a war elephant and he turns back his army after seeing her army. Also their city of Kush had the best iron of the time and made the best Iron weapons possible. Maybe you can use this fact for the weapons/armoury of the kentake units. There are artifacts displaying a warrior queen with full metalplate armour.

In the campaign map there's still a pirate ship in a river by the city Kangha which influence the popularity of the nearby cities.

[parthian shot]

I even read that one of their warriors queen faced Aelxander the great sitting on the back of a war elephant and he turns back his army after seeing her army. Also their city of Kush had the best iron of the time and made the best Iron weapons possible. Maybe you can use this fact for the weapons/armoury of the kentake units. There are artifacts displaying a warrior queen with full metalplate armour.

In the campaign map there's still a pirate ship in a river by the city Kangha which influence the popularity of the nearby cities.

The Meroitic Queen description is from the Romance of Alexander which is not entirely creditable. But it is historically true that Alexander never went further after the Oasis of Siwa, and he left the Kush + Nubia alone afterwards.

From the Meroitic writing, which has just been recently deciphered, there are numerous warrior queens in Meroe.
Also, as you pointed out, the artifact does show the queen wear full panoply of iron armors.

1. Thanks for the recommendation on iron. The Libyan Amazon is one of the few factions with iron resources, so we should make the Meroitic units the same.
2. Yes, the infamous pirate ship. Well, it is historical, but the problem is, there is no way in the game to build a navy to get rid of it!