Developing Financial Capacity with Castles

**Tuscan** · November 23, 2012, 01:27 PM

I've been lurking on this forum for quite a while and have read a lot of really excellent analysis and strategies regarding M2TW vanilla. I haven't tried any of the mods yet, simply because I just love the original and still enjoy trying different strategies with different factions. I'll never play as the Milanese, Venetians or Sicilians simply because I hate those factions in the game, how incredibly strong their militia are, and how backstabby they always are. Enough of the intro I suppose.

For shoots and googles I decided to play a campaign as the Byzantines only using castles, knowing it would be a financially difficult challenge. I just didn't realize how difficult it would be. I focused on trying to build financial capacity in each region as much as possible, but it just seems impossible to encourage enough growth quickly enough to fund any type of military expansion. I took a look through the M2TW General Discussion area of the board to see if this type of discussion existed, but didn't see it anywhere. Outside of building up farms to the max and keeping free garrison units at a max, what else can be done to really bump up the financial growth of castles? I built mines where possible, as well as docks to create some kind of trade, but nothing seems to have a large enough impact on growing financial capacity to really allow a castle-only strategy to be successful.

**Kaiser Nonsense** · November 23, 2012, 02:10 PM

I think it's rather impossible to play without cities, keeping only castles you will end up bankrupted before you realise and won't be able to pull yourself up.

**Aymer de Valence** · November 23, 2012, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by NemesisFY

I think it's rather impossible to play without cities, keeping only castles you will end up bankrupted before you realise and won't be able to pull yourself up.

Yeah exactly. Castles allow you to recruit stronger units, but these usually cost more to recruit and have a higher upkeep - money which you won't be able to pay unless you have the financial strength from cities backing you up. A castle-only campaign does sound interesting though; at least your defences will be strong!

**Vipman** · November 24, 2012, 08:04 AM

Short answer: impossible.

Constructing farms just for income is actually useless. Each level of farms give on average +50 florins.

For income in castles only paved roads, ports and mines in some regions are worth it. In cities merchant's wharf especially and paved roads. Markets are useless, they also give just about 50 florins.

Oh and BTW, castles give only half the trade income it would give if it were a city.

**eugenioso** · November 24, 2012, 09:01 AM

first of all, ive never ever heard the expression "for shoots and goggles", but enough intro.

castles dont allow any kind of higher tier money making buildings except mines, roads and ports, making them severely handicapped in the money making area. also, once a city grows up to a certain level, you cant turn it into a castle (something which i thought was ridiculous, you can turn a castle into a city but not backwards???), and finally they dont allow you to get merchants or diplomats, a bad thing, though i guess youre not exactly a peacemonger with castles only.

and also, castles cant produce the hidden high tier units exclusive to some factions. if you use this strategy as the turks, kiss the jannisaries goodbye, as they are city-exclusive units.

**ckndr** · November 24, 2012, 10:43 AM

Its very much possible if you keep conquering. You sack all the nearby Rebels. When you finally declare war on neighbors, Sack their cities + Demolish everything that you would lose anyway converting to Castle OR just sack and demolish everything and move out, letting it rebel or someone else take the settlement back.
Also sell your map info + alliance early game with each faction for 1500-2500.
And manage your tight budget well, You don't have to keep building in every settlement, only choose one main castle to train all your units.

**Sitalkes** · November 24, 2012, 08:12 PM

Also, there a no free upkeep units in castles, which is a substantial increase to your costs. Eugenioso, historically often a castle would be built and a town would grow up around it but although a city might acquire some fortifications and a keep, the city would remain a city not become fortress so I guess that's why you can't change a city to a citadel (or perhaps it's a game balancing feature). For instance, Byzantium had its famous triple walls but that did not make it a fortress, it was still a city.

**eugenioso** · November 25, 2012, 09:43 AM

i concur mr sitalkes, but then, why have castles in the first place?

**Sitalkes** · November 25, 2012, 05:13 PM

Castles were built in strategically important locations that were easily defensible. So you might biuld a castle on top of a mountain near a river crossing. It makes life awkward for anybody living there, as does the lack of space inside a castle. People who want to live there, want to be as near to the river and the road as possible. So the town grows around the river crossing and the castle eventually becomes part of the town.

**eugenioso** · November 26, 2012, 06:48 AM

nono i agree, really. i know it sounds sarcastic, but i agree with you 100%. what i mean is that the game does not represent cities properly. i could turn London into a castle and it wouldnt make any sense. it wasnt a "either a city or a castle" kind of thing.

**Tuscan** · November 27, 2012, 04:04 PM

Just as an update regarding this little experiment, what things boil down to is the fact your faction essentially turns into a marauding horde of destruction that can't financially establish or maintain itself. I tried as the byzantines and it just didn't pan out, I ran out of money while trying to destroy the Turks, sacking each city. Problem is you have to have such a large army to be able to sack and continue that you bankrupt yourself in the process, and once that marauding army is too small to effectively fight off your opponent, game's over and everyone hates you and turns on you instantly. The fall of Constantinople was rather epic, though, as my entire family (all 5 of them) made their last stand against a Venetian-Hungarian invasion force. I've never had the game ally against me and group attack me like that before. Quite the experience. Oh and shoots and goggles is the G rated version of the obvious expression, not sure how folks around here are for flagrant use of profanity.

**Vissewalde rex de Gerzika** · November 28, 2012, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Tuscan

The fall of Constantinople was rather epic, though, as my entire family (all 5 of them) made their last stand against a Venetian-Hungarian invasion force. I've never had the game ally against me and group attack me like that before. Quite the experience. Oh and shoots and goggles is the G rated version of the obvious expression, not sure how folks around here are for flagrant use of profanity.

Ehh, i actually want to get destroyed in a game by the AI for once, it would be an amazing last stand to put up in your final city, im sure, but without any late technology like mortars, gunpowder and pikemen last stands wont be that much fun, as only being limited to your standard trebuchet and crappy archers and regular towers isnt much fun any more.

**Tuscan** · November 27, 2012, 04:08 PM

This also made me think of another question. Does the game have a built in probability to whether a rioting city/castle will go rebel or back to its former faction? Can it go back to its former faction (i.e. I ransack Ragusa and leave it unoccupied so it instantly riots, will it always go rebel or can it go back to being Venetian)?

**Vipman** · November 28, 2012, 08:10 AM

I don't know exactly how it works but I know it is possible for settlements, when rebelling, to go back to their creator faction if it's alive. Each region has set in descr_strat a faction_creator, I remember something about being able for the faction_creator to change during the game somehow but no idea how...

**Vipman** · November 28, 2012, 12:12 PM

Well using the hotseat function (like in my guide) you can skip turns until late game to get gunpowder and advanced units and then play with a dying faction which is at war with a bigger one

**Tuscan** · November 28, 2012, 02:47 PM

I say just play as a balls-to-the-wall West-Europe Christian faction hell-bent on Excommunication by attacking every possible other Christian faction, and see if you can outlast the eventual onslaught of Crusades and AI offensives.

**eugenioso** · November 28, 2012, 10:40 PM

or survive the intact mongol army in Smolensk the citadel with cannon towers and a full english army

**Tuscan** · November 29, 2012, 08:05 AM

Back to the original topic at hand, aside from ports, roads, farming, and mining, is there any other way to bring in revenue from castles? And is there a way to set castles up to have a healthy revenue increase year over year?

**Vipman** · November 29, 2012, 08:35 AM

No. Castles are simply not made to make money. Last thing would be putting very chivalrous governors in them to increase population to increase tax and trade, but it would increase the income by +/- 500 florins in ... 30 turns maybe. I'd rather put that chivalrous general in a coastal city with great trade potential but low on population to get it to minor city at least to build then merchant's wharf.