How do you do hammer and anvil properly?

[Jhattoy]

Ok so I've played a lot of RTW but I just recently bought MIITW and it seems to me like it's a little harder to pull of a devastating cavalry charge (at least in my experience). Yes I always swing my cav around the enemies flank and try to hit em with a deadly charge, but when I do it doesn't seem that effective. Either that or some archers or other infantry get in my way. That ALWAYS happens.... -_-

My question is, how do I pull off a really well charge that mass routs enemies? How do I stop the infantry from getting. in my way???

Also what are some good cav tactics? From basic to advanced?

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

You have to remember that in M2 cav and other units in general respond a lot more slower than in RTW, it adds some realism because cavalry cant start a charge from about 20 m away and turn instantly the second you tell them to. At first it seems like a pain that they arent doing what theyre told, but you get used to the response rates in a week.

To pull off a good charge:

1. Get your cav quite a bit away from the unit you want to charge, 1.5/2 times further than in RTW should be good
2. Get them to stand still and face the direction in which youll charge(not nessecarry all the time, but if you order your men to start the sharge while your men are running away from them they might scramble across the battlefield and a half of the unit will sharge and a half will stay back)
3. If you get another unit in the way it will be good in the sense that at least you charged something down, if there are only a few men in your way from the other units your cav should cut trough them and continue the charge.

Also, there are no mass routs in M2, the morale is much more individual for each unit, even with a 10 fread general you cant rout the whole army with the help of a single charge.

[Sar1n]

Couple hints from me...use Wedge formation, it's better to keep the cavalry moving, even at the cost of less actual damage of the charge. Also, single out enemy unit, hit it with several cavalry units at once, if it routs tear it up, if it hold retreat the cavalry and hit another target or them again.

[Jhattoy]

Thank you! Yeah they must have made the AI a lot smarter than in RTW. In Rome it was easy for me to surround the enemy and to charge my cav. Also, all of my charges just look so sloppy. my battle seems to get so scattered. I mean there is a front line battle but there seems to be so many random troops running everywhere that no matter what there will be a unit in the way of my charge when I'm trying to hit their rears. Bleh, I've always been good with infantry and just before I stopped playing Rome I was trying to get really good with cav. Maybe I just need to practice more...

[Kaiser Nonsense]

One hint from me, NEVER leave your knights fighting, charge them, at the very moment they touch the enemy, wait 1 second and pull them WELL back, then charge again, and again, and again. That way you can get a unit of 60 Feudal Knights to kill 700 men, 'til all your knights are dead.

[Jhattoy]

One hint from me, NEVER leave your knights fighting, charge them, at the very moment they touch the enemy, wait 1 second and pull them WELL back, then charge again, and again, and again. That way you can get a unit of 60 Feudal Knights to kill 700 men, 'til all your knights are dead.

Yeah I always seem to forget that a lot after my first initial charge. I just usually let my infantry and cavalry surround the units that aren't routing. I need to start doing that though. Thanks!

Even though this is a reply, this is a general question. How many units of heavy/light cav do you guys play with? I usually have my general and 4 units of heavy horses. I feel with 4 you can have two to counter attack any of the enemies cavalry and two for the charge (all all four if I can)

[Kaiser Nonsense]

I like to have 6 units of longbowmen, 2 units of the best knights available, the general's bodyguard, 2 units of pikemen and the rest all heavy infantry.

[Jhattoy]

I finally did it!!! I was the French fighting the By
zantines and I finally got a really good charge in with nobody in my way. It shattered their left flank, 3 units routed right when it hit and the whole army started to crumble after that. I think I just need to start taking advantage when gaps open up.

And I remembered to pull my cav out seconds after the charge hit. It helped keep em alive and it really helped with the battle!

[Aeratus]

That's good. The cavalry in M2 are less maneuverable than in RTW, but have much stronger charges. Chivalric knights will wipe out half a unit of heavy infantry at the impact of the charge, if hit head on. So in many situations, better to charge head on, rather than maneuver around them.

Besides the visible unit stats, charge effectiveness is determined by the mass of the cavalry, which you can tell by the type of the horse. Plate/lamellar armored horses have the highest mass, followed by clothed/mailed horses, followed by unclothed horses.

[mortem et gloria]

Always involve the target in an infantry attack and then hit hard in the flank or rear. I always like to give it 2.3secs as it gives the chance for all units to hit, bu there are lots of tactics just have a play.

I love to play as Portugal with the jinnetes attack the flanks and draw them across the map while moving your heavy feudal knights to the rear using your dismounted knights and spear pike unit for a frontal assault commit the jinnetes to a flank attack while your heavy knight hit the rear instant fleeing.

[mortem et gloria]

Always involve the target in an infantry attack and then hit hard in the flank or rear. I always like to give it 2.3secs as it gives the chance for all units to hit, bu there are lots of tactics just have a play.

I love to play as Portugal with the jinnetes attack the flanks and draw them across the map while moving your heavy feudal knights to the rear using your dismounted knights and spear pike unit for a frontal assault commit the jinnetes to a flank attack while your heavy knight hit the rear instant fleeing.

[Sitalkes]

To be sure that your cavalry attack goes in properly, you have to do it slowly. It's nail-biting slow and suspenseful, but to be sure you have to do this:

1. Move far enough away from the target to allow for the charge plus a bit more.
2. Form your cavalry up for the charge. Do not attempt to change direction or turn around and charge. Stretch them into the longest line necessary to provide the greatest impact from the charge
3. Right-Click ONCE on the target
3. wait while the cavalry walk towards the target. They will sound the horn and charge when they get into charge reach If you do not hear the horn sound then they will not get the charge bonus, perhaps this is why you were not having much success.

You can right-double click and succeed, but the method above is the only way to ensure they stay in a long line and charge. If you double-click they may bunch up and not charge properly, or even not get the charge bonus. You may also do best by double-clicking on a unit BEHIND your target, as this ensures that the whole unit hits and not just the first man.

One of the above posts mentions that using wedge is beneficial, I should like a further explanation. Every other post about wedges I have read says don't use them. They look spectacular and are good for moving around (and not having any flanks) but when they hit the target only the man on the tip of the point will fight/get the charge bonus. This could be good if your general is that man and want your general to get some good traits but only if he survives!

An army may collapse due to not having a general or because your general has a lot of dread. If you kill the enemy general you will see the army collapse pretty quickly. You want to attack the enemy morale by attacking with fire arrows when they are wavering and simply by putting a unit behind the enemy units or having more men than the enemy or by attacking in heavy rain (possibly a night attack also lowers morale).

Repeated charges do work well, use shift-click to ensure they happen as fast as possible, but you may tire out the cavalry doing this. You don't have to pull your cavalry out of a melee if they are winning well or if you throw an infantry unit in with them. Often if you try to pull the cavalry out of melee the enemy unit will try to pursue them or the cavalry unit (if it is winning) will simply ignore your order. Putting another unit in often helps get the cavalry out of the fight so they can charge again. Don't charge steady spearmen frontally unless they are town militia spearmen who have no anti-cavalry bonus.

[Jhattoy]

To be sure that your cavalry attack goes in properly, you have to do it slowly. It's nail-biting slow and suspenseful, but to be sure you have to do this:

1. Move far enough away from the target to allow for the charge plus a bit more.
2. Form your cavalry up for the charge. Do not attempt to change direction or turn around and charge. Stretch them into the longest line necessary to provide the greatest impact from the charge
3. Right-Click ONCE on the target
3. wait while the cavalry walk towards the target. They will sound the horn and charge when they get into charge reach If you do not hear the horn sound then they will not get the charge bonus, perhaps this is why you were not having much success.

You can right-double click and succeed, but the method above is the only way to ensure they stay in a long line and charge. If you double-click they may bunch up and not charge properly, or even not get the charge bonus. You may also do best by double-clicking on a unit BEHIND your target, as this ensures that the whole unit hits and not just the first man.

One of the above posts mentions that using wedge is beneficial, I should like a further explanation. Every other post about wedges I have read says don't use them. They look spectacular and are good for moving around (and not having any flanks) but when they hit the target only the man on the tip of the point will fight/get the charge bonus. This could be good if your general is that man and want your general to get some good traits but only if he survives!

An army may collapse due to not having a general or because your general has a lot of dread. If you kill the enemy general you will see the army collapse pretty quickly. You want to attack the enemy morale by attacking with fire arrows when they are wavering and simply by putting a unit behind the enemy units or having more men than the enemy or by attacking in heavy rain (possibly a night attack also lowers morale).

Repeated charges do work well, use shift-click to ensure they happen as fast as possible, but you may tire out the cavalry doing this. You don't have to pull your cavalry out of a melee if they are winning well or if you throw an infantry unit in with them. Often if you try to pull the cavalry out of melee the enemy unit will try to pursue them or the cavalry unit (if it is winning) will simply ignore your order. Putting another unit in often helps get the cavalry out of the fight so they can charge again. Don't charge steady spearmen frontally unless they are town militia spearmen who have no anti-cavalry bonus.

Oooooh, I didn't know you were supposed to click once. So whenever my knights are charging with their lances do I get a bonus?

And I always thought keeping my horses in a line would be a lot more effective in a charge, it seems like that would cause more damage and hit more guys. A solid line(Hammer) vs an arrow. But everyone says wedge is better. What's the advantages and disadvantages of wedge?

[Sar1n]

Wedge does have lesser impact than normal line charge, but it got other advantages. First, your cavalry will keep moving, so you can repeat charge quickly, and your cavalry is in contact with enemy for less time, minimizing your losses. Second, it throws enemy formation into chaos. Wedge will split the enemy unit in the middle, breaking their cohesion, that can be very important against some units, like pikemen. It's good to charge your own heavy infantry, or a melee focused heavy cavalry like Norse War Clerics into the corridor before it closes down.

[Sitalkes]

Three checks for a cavalry charge charge bonus:
1. your knights lower their lances
2, you hear the horn sound
3. you move your mouse pointer over them and it says they are charging

you can click twice, it just means that a less orderly charge is likely, it may work just as well, but to be sure you should get them into formation facing the right direction then right click once (you can right shift-click to ensure they charge/start moving as soon as they finish getting into formation)

My experience with a wedge is that described in guides that say never use it - often only the front figure (or the figures that actually hit the enemy) gets the charge bonus and only the front figure fights. Then you have to get out of wedge and double-click on the enemy to get the rest of the wedge to fight. It is supposed to work the way sar1n describes, but I haven't seen it do that. It's also the worst possible formation for pursuit.

[Jhattoy]

Three checks for a cavalry charge charge bonus:
1. your knights lower their lances
2, you hear the horn sound
3. you move your mouse pointer over them and it says they are charging

you can click twice, it just means that a less orderly charge is likely, it may work just as well, but to be sure you should get them into formation facing the right direction then right click once (you can right shift-click to ensure they charge/start moving as soon as they finish getting into formation)

My experience with a wedge is that described in guides that say never use it - often only the front figure (or the figures that actually hit the enemy) gets the charge bonus and only the front figure fights. Then you have to get out of wedge and double-click on the enemy to get the rest of the wedge to fight. It is supposed to work the way sar1n describes, but I haven't seen it do that. It's also the worst possible formation for pursuit.

I see, well I'm going to try all this out and let you know if it worked. I've already noticed a huge difference in my cavalry control and such. I'm getting better!

[Kaiser Nonsense]

I disagree with Sitalkes, if you know how to do it, double click can do it far better and faster, also making haste you can do more charges in a short period of time, therefore causing more damage to the enemy.

[Jhattoy]

Historically speaking, wasn't cavalry used for one devestating charge rather than multiple? (Although I still use multiple charges after NemesisFY mentioned it, lol)

Also, thank you for all of your comments and answers! I've done a few very successful charges using both the one-click and two-click now, i'd say they're both effective. I think if I have time in a batlle, I'm going to use the one-click. But if things are hectic, I'll use the two-click. I do like the effect of not using wedge though. It feels a lot more powerful when the entire line hits at once. It feels like a warhammer hitting a skull..... Pun definately intended.

[Sitalkes]

I think the main point is that if you run, then charge (rather than walk, then charge) your troops are likely to lose formation, (or hit as a block) so they don't hit in a nice neat line. The request was for a way to charge and rout opponents immediately. For maximum effectiveness you have to hit all at once in a nice straight line at 90 degrees to the target. This can happen if you run, but is much more likely to happen if you walk, and repeated charges will then not be necessary.

[Sitalkes]

Depends on the circumstances. Battle of Hastings - the Normans charged the Saxon line repeatedly to no effect (heavy infantry uphill armed with two-handed armour piercing weapons and spears, not defeated until they pursued the French and were shot up) and the French also charged repeatedly at Crecy and Agincourt.