Isengard tips?

**Arlin** · November 20, 2012, 07:03 PM

Beat my first campaign as High Elves and decided I wanted to try out an evil faction. Chose Isengard because I figured they would be able to field more armies than Elves can as well as have elite Uruk-hai troops. I think I was making some assumptions on their power. I accept this is early game so maybe I am not seeing things clearly, but I'm struggling a little. I find that going head to head with Rohan is hurting bad. Rohan's axemen/swordsmen tend to brutalize my Uruk-Hai Raiders and Dunlendings. Warg riders don't tend to stand up well against some of Rohan's cavalry, especially not general units. Should I be expecting such pyrrhic victories? Also, the unit upkeep is just as gnarly as the Elves, so I'm assuming it's probably this bad for every faction?

So can y'all give me some advice on tactics, army composition, etc?

**GoatHammer** · November 20, 2012, 07:32 PM

Hello, I too am having Isengard problem.

Very specificly, when I was playing on earlier versions recruit time for snagas was very low, maybe 3 or 4 turns. Now I am playing 3.2 vanilla and recruit time for snagas is too high! 8-12 turns! I do not think this is the correct recruit time. Before Isengard has problems that there is no money to buy enough the units but now I am having lots of money and nothing to buy with it.

**LuckyPistol** · November 20, 2012, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Arlin

Beat my first campaign as High Elves and decided I wanted to try out an evil faction. Chose Isengard because I figured they would be able to field more armies than Elves can as well as have elite Uruk-hai troops. I think I was making some assumptions on their power. I accept this is early game so maybe I am not seeing things clearly, but I'm struggling a little. I find that going head to head with Rohan is hurting bad. Rohan's axemen/swordsmen tend to brutalize my Uruk-Hai Raiders and Dunlendings. Warg riders don't tend to stand up well against some of Rohan's cavalry, especially not general units. Should I be expecting such pyrrhic victories? Also, the unit upkeep is just as gnarly as the Elves, so I'm assuming it's probably this bad for every faction?

So can y'all give me some advice on tactics, army composition, etc?

There are two things you can do with Isengard to have a stable game:

1. Blitz either Edoras or the Hornburg so they can't get their better units. Though you might be past that point unless you want to start over.

2. Grab the rebel settlements and attack Rohan's western area.

Some people might say try to make a peace treaty with them, but its too much trouble and will distract you. The first thing you should do is build up economic buildings, I think ISengard itself has some mines. Try to avoid field battles and just defend the two closest cities (99% Rohan will go straight to the captial, but Orthanc is easy to defend). I personally recommend grabbing the Tharbads and the far rebel settlements before attacking Rohan. You should keep Fangorn too and don't try to get on the High Elves nerves!
Isengard is tricky in that you have to play both like a horde (with the snagas) and like a normal army (Dunlendings and Uruk-Hai). The raiders should have no problem taking care of Rohan infantry, try using your snagas to take the brunt and then flank with raiders, or better yet, wargs. Dunlending spearmen should be used to defend against Rohan cavalry, and a unit of Fellers helps a lot too, just make sure they're not left alone. Snagas can chase down archers (or if archers are distracted, use wargs), and you should leave wargs out of confrontation with any Rohan cavalry (I have won against Scouts in the past, but don't risk it). Wargs are really just shock troops to rout the enemy.

But in the beginning, yes, expect close victories and such. When you get Uruk Infantry and Pikes, the tides will turn

I don't know about the Snaga thing though, I would put that in the Q&A thread.

**Arlin** · November 20, 2012, 08:15 PM

1) I think I might be. I'm about 40 turns in and I've been sieging Helm's Deep/Hornburg for the past 4-5 turns. It's not gonna be a pretty battle either...

2) Well, I thought of that a bit late when I started putting together a second force. So that force is about to fight another not-so-pretty battle for Talsir.

These two fights may end the campaign for me.

I did take Fangorn early and I took North & South Tharbad. However, the latter has caused me to piss off Eriador who now routinely attacks the North Tharbad. High Elves haven't done anything yet so I think I'm ok there. Silvan's aren't messing with me either thankfully, though they weren't pleased about Fangorn.

I will try those battle tactics. I've been trying to go purely "normal" army and just go head to head with Raiders and such. I suppose I should invest in some Snagas and put them on the front line as meatshields until I can get my elite tier of units. I will possibly just have to restart the campaign with this knowledge.

Thankfully, I did get my economy good before fighting. I learned enough in my High Elf campaign to get that started correctly, although fielding armies to match the size of Rohan's is impossible due to how much more land they own.

**ppetrus** · November 20, 2012, 08:40 PM

It may be best to resign from North Tharbad and defend the bridge. You could even sell it (North Tharbad, not the bridge). To evil faction or to somebody who have culture different than northmen, for example Dwarves or Gondor. This way Eriador will not take it and before there will be enough culture in the town to train units, you will get tens of turns of peace. In my first Gondor campaign I sold Cirith Ungol to OotMM and got peace ever since.

**Arlin** · November 20, 2012, 08:58 PM

That's actually a brilliant idea, Ppetrus. They haven't messed with me in a while so I toggled fow for a sec and saw that they're getting rolled by OoG and OotMM. They've got bigger fish to fry it seems, but if the tides turn, I will sell it like you said. Peace for long enough to smash Rohan will be all I need.

And an update: I won at Helms Deep pretty badly. They never sallied so by the time the battle hit, their army was super weak. The fight at Talsir, however, brutalized my second force so the invasion of western Rohan is put on hold for a while so I can replace half an army. The campaign IS looking up though after those two victories. Was a make it or break it moment for me there.

**LuckyPistol** · November 21, 2012, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by ppetrus

It may be best to resign from North Tharbad and defend the bridge. You could even sell it (North Tharbad, not the bridge). To evil faction or to somebody who have culture different than northmen, for example Dwarves or Gondor. This way Eriador will not take it and before there will be enough culture in the town to train units, you will get tens of turns of peace. In my first Gondor campaign I sold Cirith Ungol to OotMM and got peace ever since.

How...how did you do that? @.@

But I have to disagree with selling N.Tharbad, it can become a decent money maker. I've never had Eriador attack me, in fact, I've never had Eriador declare war on me in any campaign

**Zafersan** · November 21, 2012, 10:45 AM

Make peace with Rohan and ally with Rohan and Gondor. Take out the Orcs of the Misty Mountains asap then build a mighty base in the mountains and get ready for the jihad on Edoras. When Sauron calls for the invasion, reveal your true colours and declare war. With Moria under your control, you have a war base and a strong economy. Pike and crossbow only armies against Rohan will destroy them.

**Arlin** · November 21, 2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Zafersan

Make peace with Rohan and ally with Rohan and Gondor.

Found the only guide for Isengard last night and it said exactly this. Basically, rush Grima straight to Gondor and kiss butt to get alliance. Rohan will ceasefire so you can ally them. Just go around allying everyone on the NW of Middle-Earth. This would give you time to take every rebel settlement available and build your economy. Makes it so you can avoid those early game battles where Isengard trying to go toe-to-toe with Rohan's stack spam just becomes a gruesome and boring campaign.

And yes, I did the exact opposite of what I should have. Yay for learning experiences? I kept up with my campaign, grudgingly accepted some of my pyrrhic victories and the state of my crying economy due to needing a more elite army to deal with Rohan whom, somehow, was being able to send stacks of nice units at me when half their country fell. Game made a HUGE turn when I finally pushed them back to Edoras. I put Saruman on the bridge just west of Edoras while two full Rohan stacks just stared at him, refusing the bait. Swung my only other army around behind to siege Aldburg...and Rohan panicked and attacked Saruman. Despite a bridge battle, it still hurt a bit but I destroyed Rohan's power. Then, of course, to my extreme irritation, the garrison script kicked in when sieging Edoras and Aldburg and Rohan is just handed two more stacks of troops. ((Seriously, I'm going to turn that script off. Makes your hardwork almost useless)).

But I grew bored at this point... Think I may just restart the entire campaign due to my sheer frustration at how much of a slugfest it is by trying to be aggressive instead of manipulative against the good factions.

**ppetrus** · November 21, 2012, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by LuckyPistol

How...how did you do that? @.@

Maybe just the AI's flaw. OotMM at Cirith Ungol did not recruit a single unit and Mordor did not declare war on them. What is more, they concentrated on Mirkwood more and did not try specially hard to attack Ithilien from Malgalad.

**ppetrus** · November 21, 2012, 05:48 AM

I am glad you liked it. However, if you decide to sell it, have in mind that taking the region back by force later (no matter how late) will result in major reputation loss. You will have to buy it back or allow somebody else to take it from the buyer and then claim by yourself.

Unless the White Wizard does not care for reputation

**eugenioso** · November 21, 2012, 06:39 AM

i love how when i posted that isengard is hard, everyone said "no no its a piece of cake, just use gamey tactics and you win!", but i knew the truth all along...

i had the exact same situation as you did back when i first played it. thanks to the movies i had the idea that Isengard wouldnt be so underpowered at the beginning or mid game. even the books tell of how saruman bred better uruks.

tips? first of all, dont try to expand south right away, as isengard´s starting economy is rubbish, and your upkeep is high (not as high as the elves or gondor). expand west first, taking all those rebel settlements. they can later turn into small bases for future attack, as well as provide you with lots of money. in addition to all that, they provide a backdoor access onto rohan from the far left flank, far less well defended than the center or right flank, as well as giving you access to gondor´s rear.

second, mass your army. that means no small isolated groups. they get chewed up by cavalry too badly.

third, take your time and be methodical. dont simply rush the enemy, unless you use the ballista exploit to avoid the garrison script (gaaay). slow and steady beats fast and foolhardy.

fourth, siege battle. rohan is at least your equal with their infantry, but they have fewer numbers, and most of the time you will face off against rohan militia, utterly expendable units. sieges remove rohan´s massive OP cavalry advantage, so dragging the enemy into a melee on the crowded cities can be lethal to them.

fifth, army composition. going for a full uruk army is madness early game, as your economy cant take it. at least up to midgame, place snagas and other units on your armies to supplement your numbers as well as their particular uses. if you cant get uruk archers, some snaga archers will do well enough. skirmishers are also great in sieges and against cavalry.

**FC Groningen** · November 23, 2012, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by eugenioso

i love how when i posted that isengard is hard, everyone said "no no its a piece of cake, just use gamey tactics and you win!", but i knew the truth all along...

i had the exact same situation as you did back when i first played it. thanks to the movies i had the idea that Isengard wouldnt be so underpowered at the beginning or mid game. even the books tell of how saruman bred better uruks.

tips? first of all, dont try to expand south right away, as isengard´s starting economy is rubbish, and your upkeep is high (not as high as the elves or gondor). expand west first, taking all those rebel settlements. they can later turn into small bases for future attack, as well as provide you with lots of money. in addition to all that, they provide a backdoor access onto rohan from the far left flank, far less well defended than the center or right flank, as well as giving you access to gondor´s rear.

second, mass your army. that means no small isolated groups. they get chewed up by cavalry too badly.

third, take your time and be methodical. dont simply rush the enemy, unless you use the ballista exploit to avoid the garrison script (gaaay). slow and steady beats fast and foolhardy.

fourth, siege battle. rohan is at least your equal with their infantry, but they have fewer numbers, and most of the time you will face off against rohan militia, utterly expendable units. sieges remove rohan´s massive OP cavalry advantage, so dragging the enemy into a melee on the crowded cities can be lethal to them.

fifth, army composition. going for a full uruk army is madness early game, as your economy cant take it. at least up to midgame, place snagas and other units on your armies to supplement your numbers as well as their particular uses. if you cant get uruk archers, some snaga archers will do well enough. skirmishers are also great in sieges and against cavalry.

While I respect your opinion, I strongly disagree with it. I don't consider those tactics "gamey" as you say it. Avoiding the garrison script is rationally the best thing to do as you have to fight less battles and less enemy troops for the same result. I think it also depends on what mindset you enter the game. Avoiding AI scripts can be done out of sheer efficiency, but also by the consideration of being prepared. Like in any "real time war", it payed off to be prepared, whether that was sending out scouts and spies, diplomacy and ambushing. Don't feel sorry for the AI; It has no feelings and it's programmed to counter human tricks and strategies.

**LuckyPistol** · November 21, 2012, 04:06 PM

@ppetrus: That's a lucky break for you, isn't it? xD There must be mercs in the cirith ungol area...

Its not as easy as you think to get an alliance with Gondor. I would advise against it as well, and focus on High Elves. Rohan will focus on Fangorn and any other settlements on their "to win" list. You can avoid slugfests, just cover the bridge near Isengard with a full stack (make sure Saruman or the heir is there for special abilities)with lots of archers and defend. then you can take the rebel settlements, focus diplomacy with High Elves (dont ally with OoG or OotMM!). Its only a slugfest campaign if you try to conquer Rohan. Isengard is one of the few factions where blitzing is not effective :/

**ppetrus** · November 23, 2012, 09:25 AM

Both of you are right in some extent.

If TATW is to be treated only as a game that is supposed to get beaten, you have to act effectively and exploit all that can be exploited, cheating even. But treating TATW as a simulation of war and also a simulation of Middle Earth struggle, then one can easily find that all that AI advantage serves only the greater immersion and avoiding garrison scripts and making impossible alliances, etc, etc only ruins the fun the game is supposed to deliver.