Dear Jack Lusted, will there be Israeli factions?

[Ritterlichvon86]

Greetings!

To ensure historical and actual neutrality, I may first note that I am neither Jewish nor Muslim. Seeing that in Rome 1 TW the developers included Israel / Juda / Philistine in the Ptolemaic Kingdom was okay and would also be fine in Rome 2 TW in my opinion. However, there was a lack of scripted rebellions / organized resistance / seperatist movements that shook this regions for hundreds of years, even before the Roman Legions arrived at the shores. Israel/Judea and the Philistine tribes were fighting politically for constant independence and autonomy even before Rome turned the Ptolemaic Empire into a protectorate.

With today TotalWar series' sophistication regarding amounts of factions, rebellions, separatists and all that autonomous protectorate building we have seen from Napoleon, I would love to see events like these in this very special region. Rome was constantly keeping Legions in the land or in nearby reach to suppress autonomic movements of these "crazy monotheistic nutters".

Will they be ingame, as constantly rebellios regions, with rising kingdoms after Rome has taken over? Can we change the course of history yet again, give them (or one of them) autonomy to gain an ally against the Parthians and Babylon? I could depend on the player.


Total War can be great, make it so!


Will it be in, Mister Lusted? Please respond?

[Thorn777]

I certainly like what your saying, but not just regarding Judea. I think late in the game, the empire needs to occupy you as a player, and not just lets you sit there, hoarding cash, to then wipe the rest of the map in the case you feel like playing a campaign you already won.

So I think it needs lots of these provincial military struggles all over, but also political, social and economic crisis within Italica. We all know war is a continuation of politics by different means, so all these things could effect the battles you fight and really make the game allot more dimensional and durable.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

I agree, having scripted events like that would certainly add to the dynamism of managing an empire, not to mention the realism of the game. On the other hand though, I still have very frustrating memories from Rome I of rebelling settlements that revolted and popped out full stack armies full of troops with gold weapon/armour upgrades that proved increasingly problematic to quash. So as long as the balance on that is fixed, I'm all for in game resistance.

[Bregil]

I agree. Random events on the periphery (ie: Boadicea's revolt and the various Jewish revolts) should definitely be present to accurately simulate the difficulties of maintaining the massive empire.

[Clone1710]

I agree as well, would love to see the batavi revolt under the leadership of Julius Civilis or something similiar, maybe as well regulary raids on the settlements like the german tribes did at the border.

[Radzeer]

Closed for cleanup. Not looking good.

EDIT: Thread reopened. I deleted a few posts. I strongly suggest NOT discussing contemporary Israel. That is off topic and can lead to heated political discussions that have no place here.

The next person bringing in today's politics in the Middle East will be infracted upon sight.

[Argon Viper]

Judea and Samaria had a rather turbulent history, it's true, and I like the idea of having regional factions that can spring up in revolt. That said, I don't like the "scripted" idea. If we're rewriting history, why would the same thing happen that happened in the real world?

It would be nice to have "factions in waiting" for specific regions that could show up if public order got too low. We should also have the option, as the Romans did, to destroy rebellious cities like Jerusalem and scatter their populations.

[Stath's]

Scripted rebellions FTW!!

[Dan113112]

Scripted rebellions FTW!!

I would be interesting to see the various rebellions in Palestine/Judea scripted into the game. Like the Maccabean Revolt. Sorry if I spelled that wrong.

[♔The Black Knight♔]

Historically they have been a rebellious people. It would be cool to see some unrest there as well as an emergent nation as well if possible.

[bobbin]

Greetings!

To ensure historical and actual neutrality, I may first note that I am neither Jewish nor Muslim. Seeing that in Rome 1 TW the developers included Israel / Juda / Philistine in the Ptolemaic Kingdom was okay and would also be fine in Rome 2 TW in my opinion. However, there was a lack of scripted rebellions / organized resistance / seperatist movements that shook this regions for hundreds of years, even before the Roman Legions arrived at the shores. Israel/Judea and the Philistine tribes were fighting politically for constant independence and autonomy even before Rome turned the Ptolemaic Empire into a protectorate.

Judea was actually very a peaceful province until Maccabean Revolt against the Seleukids, which most modern scholars now see as a Jewish civil war that the Seleukids got caught up in as opposed to a war of liberation (which it didn't achieve anyway).

[AngryTitusPullo]

Greetings!

To ensure historical and actual neutrality, I may first note that I am neither Jewish nor Muslim. Seeing that in Rome 1 TW the developers included Israel / Juda / Philistine in the Ptolemaic Kingdom was okay and would also be fine in Rome 2 TW in my opinion. However, there was a lack of scripted rebellions / organized resistance / seperatist movements that shook this regions for hundreds of years, even before the Roman Legions arrived at the shores. Israel/Judea and the Philistine tribes were fighting politically for constant independence and autonomy even before Rome turned the Ptolemaic Empire into a protectorate.

With today TotalWar series' sophistication regarding amounts of factions, rebellions, separatists and all that autonomous protectorate building we have seen from Napoleon, I would love to see events like these in this very special region. Rome was constantly keeping Legions in the land or in nearby reach to suppress autonomic movements of these "crazy monotheistic nutters".

Will they be ingame, as constantly rebellios regions, with rising kingdoms after Rome has taken over? Can we change the course of history yet again, give them (or one of them) autonomy to gain an ally against the Parthians and Babylon? I could depend on the player.


Total War can be great, make it so!


Will it be in, Mister Lusted? Please respond?

I don't understand the need to include the muslim part in the OP...

Anyway since Empire there's no longer playable factions + generic rebels provinces anymore so I'm sure most if not all provinces will have minor faction with them and this include the Judeans.

For Rome II my intention (actually depends on final outcome of the game) is to play Roman republic and will only vassalize provinces outside Italy.

Only after they have rebelled then I will annex the kingdoms under Roman rule. Instead of painting the map red this time I will make it more powerful.

Of course for troublesome region like Judea there'll be a couple of full strength legions station there.

[Dan113112]

I don't understand the need to include the muslim part in the OP...

Anyway since Empire there's no longer playable factions + generic rebels provinces anymore so I'm sure most if not all provinces will have minor faction with them and this include the Judeans.

For Rome II my intention (actually depends on final outcome of the game) is to play Roman republic and will only vassalize provinces outside Italy.

Only after they have rebelled then I will annex the kingdoms under Roman rule. Instead of painting the map red this time I will make it more powerful.

Of course for troublesome region like Judea there'll be a couple of full strength legions station there.

Interesting idea. But if you vassaled all of your enemies then how would you deal with larger empires? Especially if your vassals refused to go to war on your side.

the balance on that is fixed, I'm all for in game resistance.

What do you mean by balanced?

[AngryTitusPullo]

Interesting idea. But if you vassaled all of your enemies then how would you deal with larger empires? Especially if your vassals refused to go to war on your side.

They don't need to go to war on my side. Just stay there and be docile. I'm confident enough in my legions.

As long as they keep giving me half of their income every turn then I do not need anything else.

I just hope that Rome II Realm Divide works better than Shogun 2/ROTS versions. Maybe more like FOTS where there's basically actual sides to choose during Roman Civil War.

[daelin4]

For historical perspective, the Jews themselves by and large were not particularly an independence-minded people; only when they've been living under an oppressive thumb (the threat of religious persecution under the Seleucids) or roused by extremist elements (the zealots that precipitated the wars against Rome) have they really went down into history or their unrest. With that in mind, one should realize that the portrayal in RTW was not only lacking, but also misleading since the Judean region pretty much had a hardcoded always-hates rulers script on unrest.

The thing with scripting and events in the campaign is that they have to have a careful and long set of triggers. It would make no sense, and worse counter-intuitive, to have simple scripts that ignore campaign circumstances. What I mean is like the inherent unrest you get no matter how long you hold Jerusalem, or if you have green-faced happiness and all that sort for all eternity, then suddenly in 66AD you get a massive uprising of Judean Zealots. That is too simple and isn't logical. A more realistic experience would be a variety of conditions and triggers, the simpler ones being that the longer Jerusalem is under unrest the more likely zealot uprisings occur.

Really, the nature of the Jews rising up against their foreign suzerains isn't anything particularly different from other incidents, just a more prominent, more well-known example. Any other group of people would have done the same if religious persecution occurred, only they usually don't have as many success stories, or if any aren't as famous. How the Judeans rise up ought to be the same as any other incident- hardened unrest, particular events that would ruffle their feathers. How the players treat the locals they conquer out to be one of the more compelling factors in whether revolts occur or not...not a hardcoded "historical incident".

I don''t mind particular attention as a salute to history, such as a few dilemmas where Judeans ask for religious tolerance, which comes with varying degrees of benefits and drawbacks, or even a progressive chain of events where you either increasingly rile up the Jewish population and thus earn yourself a large uprising and/or a faction movement, as that accommodates the what-if part of a TW campaign. They can even make it a popularity contest, where a Judean zealot revolt may or may not be received well by the populace, and as such could be an "involuntary" emergent faction.

While we're on the idea of emergent factions, I'd also like to propose that these emergent factions be able to align with certain existing factions rather than be a generic "rebel" category that everyone can pick on. If this emergent faction is, say, trying to set up a new base in your enemy's lands, it is only logical that you would be interested in helping these gys out since it means A) possibly a new vassal or ally, and B) at the expense of your enemy.

[Arima]

When it comes to military history, the Kingdom of Israel was an underdog of the ancient era.
With that in mind, how would they be able to make a Unit Roster without making them look too weak or historically inaccurate?

[total relism]

I hope isreal is in some way/or can be in through rebellion.

[Ballacraine]

It is an anachronism to refer to both 'Israel' & 'Muslim', as in the game time frame neither Israel as a country or Islam as a religion existed.

If you mean the geographical area, then yes, I would certainly hope there would be era contemporary regional factions there.

Balla.

[Asgaroth]

They should be an emergent faction, taht way the seleucids will have more problems.

I also hope they will put Nabataeans in the game.

[Truetacticia]

I didn't think Israel would even be in the game. Never played Rome 1 though so that explains my ignorance. Were the even called Israel? Did they have a high jewish population or was it majority Muslim. I would love for religion to play a role for the factions