Third Age Total War - Why do I suck?

[Ethelros]

Title explains the gist of my problem, but for elaboration's sake, here we go.

I've started numerous campaigns in TATW now, most with the following setup:

MOS mod(although a few without)
VH/VH setting
As factions including Eriador, High Elves and Isengard, as well as others that I cannot remember

Anyways, in every campaign I've tried so far, it has eventually resulted in my opponents steamrolling me with near or full stacks of units, with me completely unable to keep up with my own unit production. I've tried taking advice from the multiple guides here, like improving economic buildings right off the bat etc, but nothing has seemed to work.

Using my recent attempt with Eriador as an example, at first I was doing rather well. I managed to take all of the regions needed for the Arnor conditions, with my finances mostly in the positive, and pretty well defended borders. But at around the 90th turn, everything seemed to go pear-shaped. My fights with Gundabad were much rougher than normal, with my own troops taking more and more casualties. Eventually they started bringing in Troll units that I was seemingly unable to take down. As a result I lost two of my border territories(Athilin and Coldfells), as well as my two best generals. At this point my larger armies were completely destroyed, leaving me with a few scant basic tier troops at most, with Gundabad marching ever more groups towards my other settlements.

I pretty much gave up here, since it was evident that I couldn't stop them. And this whole thing has happened with every single one of my other campaigns. I just don't know what to do with this game anymore. I love the Middle-earth appeal of it, but if I can't succeed in it at all I'm not sure how much more I can take before the fun seeps away.

Is there possibly any fundamental advice I could get that would help? Perhaps someone has been in a similar position to mine?

(P.S. I'm sure somebody will recommend lowering the difficulty settings, but the game itself actually recommends VH/VH, and frankly changing them just feels like wussing out)

[Gallus]

Lower the difficulty. Very hard means very hard. Play some campaigns on medium/medium so you get to know the game. Only when that becomes easy try playing on vh/vh. The point of the game is to have fun. If you're not having fun because the game is too hard then lower the difficulty.

[Ethelros]

I figured that would be the case. I did do one game as Dale on M/M, and to be honest it was pretty much a faceroll for me. How much does the difficulty actually change the game? I mean, does it just hand the AI extra resources and units or something?

[Altimis]

Title explains the gist of my problem, but for elaboration's sake, here we go.

I've started numerous campaigns in TATW now, most with the following setup:

MOS mod(although a few without)
VH/VH setting
As factions including Eriador, High Elves and Isengard, as well as others that I cannot remember

Anyways, in every campaign I've tried so far, it has eventually resulted in my opponents steamrolling me with near or full stacks of units, with me completely unable to keep up with my own unit production. I've tried taking advice from the multiple guides here, like improving economic buildings right off the bat etc, but nothing has seemed to work.

Using my recent attempt with Eriador as an example, at first I was doing rather well. I managed to take all of the regions needed for the Arnor conditions, with my finances mostly in the positive, and pretty well defended borders. But at around the 90th turn, everything seemed to go pear-shaped. My fights with Gundabad were much rougher than normal, with my own troops taking more and more casualties. Eventually they started bringing in Troll units that I was seemingly unable to take down. As a result I lost two of my border territories(Athilin and Coldfells), as well as my two best generals. At this point my larger armies were completely destroyed, leaving me with a few scant basic tier troops at most, with Gundabad marching ever more groups towards my other settlements.

I pretty much gave up here, since it was evident that I couldn't stop them. And this whole thing has happened with every single one of my other campaigns. I just don't know what to do with this game anymore. I love the Middle-earth appeal of it, but if I can't succeed in it at all I'm not sure how much more I can take before the fun seeps away.

Is there possibly any fundamental advice I could get that would help? Perhaps someone has been in a similar position to mine?

(P.S. I'm sure somebody will recommend lowering the difficulty settings, but the game itself actually recommends VH/VH, and frankly changing them just feels like wussing out)

Trolls weak against cavalry charging even weakest cavalry can kill it, Arnor have good cavalry so use them

When you fighting Trolls, it will try to crush your "expensive" unit or "most harm" for them so order your cavalry ready for flanking it. It will die easily from charged.

And if you lose all your army its will be the end for you because you can't recruit more than pool's recruitment

So restart the game or load the previous save would be advised.

If you think you can't win easy with less casualties, retreat. If its about to reach the town, fight it.

I figured that would be the case. I did do one game as Dale on M/M, and to be honest it was pretty much a faceroll for me. How much does the difficulty actually change the game? I mean, does it just hand the AI extra resources and units or something?

They are, AI will give extra money and unit recruitment slot so they can fight "Human" both good and evil.

[Gallus]

Where exactly is the problem? Do you lose too many troops in battles or are you annoyed by the number of stacks AI has? If it's the latter, then try playing with very hard battles and medium campaign difficulty. On VH/VH AI gets ridiculous amount of free troops.

[Ethelros]

It's a little of both I think. I definitely am not experienced with battles. Most of the time I use the standard formations(Melee in front, archers behind, pewpew until they get into melee and then attempt to wear them down, possibly with a couple of cavalry charges from the rear if I have any), and it *normally* works out OK, aside from the trolls as I said in the OP. My attempt with Isengard was definitely more on the stack problem variety. It seemed like Rohan was able to churn out three stacks in the time it took for me to scrap together enough for one(that's ALL of my troops).

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation, I'll try another campaign on a lower difficulty, maybe Medium or Hard in the campaign area to see if I can cope better with that.

Appreciate the quick response.

[Dude with the Food]

If trolls are your problem, use axemen and javelins(or throwing axes). If they have too big armies each fight try some custom battles with elves and dwarves and play whichever of those fit your playstyle. If you lose too much money straight too early, edit kings purses for all factions in descr strat.
(Although I obviously wouldn't do that, would I? )

[Evalation]

It's a little of both I think. I definitely am not experienced with battles. Most of the time I use the standard formations(Melee in front, archers behind, pewpew until they get into melee and then attempt to wear them down, possibly with a couple of cavalry charges from the rear if I have any), and it *normally* works out OK, aside from the trolls as I said in the OP. My attempt with Isengard was definitely more on the stack problem variety. It seemed like Rohan was able to churn out three stacks in the time it took for me to scrap together enough for one(that's ALL of my troops).

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation, I'll try another campaign on a lower difficulty, maybe Medium or Hard in the campaign area to see if I can cope better with that.

Appreciate the quick response.

If your not that experienced you should try a lower setting. my preferable setting is medium campaign difficulty with hard battle difficulty.

[ppetrus]

Eriador as an example, at first I was doing rather well. I managed to take all of the regions needed for the Arnor conditions, with my finances mostly in the positive, and pretty well defended borders. But at around the 90th turn, everything seemed to go pear-shaped. My fights with Gundabad were much rougher than normal

If you allow Gundabad to exist by the 90th turn, I would not call that "doing rather well".

Split your initial units in two, leave one half to defend agains OotMM and Isengard and send the other to Gundabad to completely annihilate it. Reinforced with spear and archer militias that half is perfectly fit to do the job.

Thus, I believe your failures result from too defensive or even passive approach.

[Ethelros]

If you allow Gundabad to exist by the 90th turn, I would not call that "doing rather well".

Split your initial units in two, leave one half to defend agains OotMM and Isengard and send the other to Gundabad to completely annihilate it. Reinforced with spear and archer militias that half is perfectly fit to do the job.

Thus, I believe your failures result from too defensive or even passive approach.

Well, by that I meant 'not getting annihilated'.

But you are probably right. I have a heavy tendency to take a very slow approach, preferring to build up the quality of my forces before attacking, and even then being paranoid about overextending myself. Perhaps that is not such a good strategy to use in TATW, if what I've heard about some of the factions(especially Gondor) is true.

Thanks for the perspectives. I'll definitely try a M/M game and see if I can learn some stuff.

[ppetrus]

Well, by that I meant 'not getting annihilated'.But you are probably right. I have a heavy tendency to take a very slow approach, preferring to build up the quality of my forces before attacking, and even then being paranoid about overextending myself. Perhaps that is not such a good strategy to use in TATW, if what I've heard about some of the factions(especially Gondor) is true.

There is not such thing as "overextending". And usually it is way better to steamroll at all cost into a highground, bottleneck or a river to estabilish your border there. In case of Eriador it is the river on the south (which is a perfect defensive position, no reason to expand further) and mountains in the north-east (the only tricky part is to take Carn Dum and then you are free to go forward without the need of leaving more troops than garrisoned units).

[DrDragun]

There are many small nuances of the game that really matter. As you gain experience, if you have curiosity you will learn them over time.

Upkeep System: Understand unit upkeep and the free upkeep system. If a unit's card is colored blue while in a city, it is not paying upkeep. Upkeep is very expensive, its the full cost of the unit every 3 turns. Don't keep more units than your free upkeep allows, except on war-front cities.

Economy: Understand what the buildings do and use a proper build order. Advanced players sync this with growing your governors.

Battles: Understand the roles of different units. The front lines will take losses from archers and enemy charges. It is wasteful to use heavy 2-hander infantry here. Use cheap militia infantry or heavy defensive infantry with shieldwall for the center and first contact. Big 2-hander axemen and swordmasters should wrap around the ends of the enemy line and murder them from the rear. Use your cavalry to eliminate siege weapons and archers first, then hammer the rear of the enemy formation. If you face an army of all infantry, hit and run with your archers until they are nearly out of ammo, then engage with your infantry. You can probably chew down a good chunk of them (save 10% ammo for flaming shots later on)

Routing: Understand what makes the computer armies rout. There is a special chain reaction that can occur when 3 or more units rout, so its often best to shock the enemy weak units first and rout them rapidly.

New conquered cities: The new city will be unhappy at first. You need a good general or a lot of troops, and rush your culture buildings first to subdue the populace. If you are conquering many large cities together, it might be good to move your capital near the war front to reduce the "distance to capital" happiness penalty. This will mean you learn less money overall but your conquests will proceed more quickly.

There are many more tricks others can add.

[Leomar]

My city defense strategy: Always keep at least one unit of ballista, one unit of cavalry (a general), some archers and some infantry in your front-line cities.

When attacked sally out with your cav and attack the units with ladders and towers. They will drop their siege equipment to defend, let only the battering ram advance. After your gates are down all enemy units push through your gate, making the perfect choke point. Hold them with some infantry and fire flaming arrows and flaming balista bolts into the crowd. This cripples their morale and they will rout reliably. Finish them off with your cav.

This works best in orcish cities with a lot of space to place your ballista unit, but also good enough in other cities.

Troll units often destroy that strategy as they bash your infantry fast. So usually I sally out in the round after they layed siege and use the ballista to take out the trolls (one may call that cheating of course ). Then quit the battle and await the attack of the remaining troops.

Ballistas also work very nice on choke points like bridges.

[chriskourou]

Jesus, very hard is really very hard in TATW... Try medium and if u find it too easy to play (doubt that) switch to hard. One step at a time

[Arlin]

I would have to agree. I'm starting out on M/M due to being new to both M2TW and TATW. It is still a nice learning curve compared to RTW. The recruitment stuff is messing with me a bit. I can't throw out full stacks in 2 turns.

[muller227]

I have always preferred a defensive role in my games when playing as a good faction anyway, Gondor gets annihilated that way I found out. Isengard was especially difficult for me at first with this strategy as yes the Rohirrim were popping out the map. They however have several weaker towns to the east that do not get the garrison script that I was able too take. Playing MOS was actually easier because Dunland and Rohan were at war as well.

Elves on the other hand have never been a particular problem for me. I will say this though Elven archers are best in the front line using direct rather than arching fire. You have to be ready to move them and cover them with Cavalry from Wargs and trolls. Elven heavy infantry I usually use as a reserve keeping them as fresh as possible.

[k/t]

I will say this though Elven archers are best in the front line using direct rather than arching fire.

I think you meant

archers are best in the front line using direct rather than arching fire.

[Thangaror]

Elves on the other hand have never been a particular problem for me. I will say this though Elven archers are best in the front line using direct rather than arching fire.

Indeed. Direct fire has an impact on the movement of the enemy unit, slowing it down significantly.

A bit of advice:

• The key to victory are reserves!!! Never put all your infantry into one front line. Form a front line of five or six melee units, place the other melee units in the second line. Preferably this should be your spearmen and units with two-handed weapons, they need to be mobile. If you put your spears in the first line, the AI will avoid them with their cavalry and attack not-spear units. If they're in the second line, you can move them freely to intercept cavalry, plus spearmen have a disadvantage against swordsmen.
• Make use of the guardmode wisely
• Do not use the standard formations, rather form groups based on your unit type (group 1: infantry, group 2: archers, group 3, skirmishers etc.), put them in single line formation and then place them individually.
• If you move your groups with Alt + Rightclick they will maintain orientation (difficult to explain this, try pressing and not pressing Alt when moving and you'll see).
• AI archers preferably attack your archers. Therefore, place one unit of archers (or skirmishers, if you have those) in loose formation in the very first line. They will act as a bait for enemy archers. If you can, use elite archers (or heavily armoured ones) with fewer number of men. You can spread them out all along your infantry line, they should take very few casualties if your enemy doesn't have particularly good archers.
• If your archers are standing in the second line, disable the skirmish mode. Otherwise they'll start running as soon as your infantry is engaged in melee, although they still could aim at other enemy units. But also keep an eye on them! Always put archers in guardmode, or they'll start running around getting engaged in melee.
• Ballistae can be quite useful.

[ThaDoews]

In my Eriador campaign i ONLY fight on ONE front! I made an alliance with Dunland as soon as i can. THen i can focus my troops on taking rebel settlements and Gundabad/Misty Mountain. Often MM orcs wont go into a fight with me before around 100, so i have lots of troops ready to take the hordes coming from Gundabad
Actually, by doing so AND build economy (that can be barracks because of the free upkeep), the campaign can/will be rather easy

After you beat Gundabad you can take on MM orcs then Dunlendings and so on

[muller227]

Another thing that has helped me in my battles, especially the very large ones you play in TATW, is too keep tabs on your units stamina rating. This is especially true of infantry and Heavy Cavalry I think personally. I tend too keep them out of battles as long as possible. Light Cavalry and archers on the other hand I put far forward, engaging and making units chase them as much as I possible can. Tired enemies are much easier too deal with.