[GENERAL DISCUSSION] [SPOILERS] G.R.R.Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire

**Inarus** · July 21, 2008, 05:11 PM

Time for a nice, organised, single discussion thread! Let the fandom rage, let the theories be known and let every last spoiler be concealed!

**The Forgotten** · November 16, 2012, 05:36 PM

This is a very good idea. Now to start it off,

Hodor.

**maxi90** · November 16, 2012, 05:44 PM

I see your Hodor and raise with a "Corn?".

**The Guy With No Imagination** · November 16, 2012, 10:21 PM

I beat you all.

"That's all I wanted, what was promised."

**Ori** · November 17, 2012, 12:12 AM

You know since this is kind of open, I'm just going to go out and say that pretty much everyone who reads ASOIAF seems to suffer from a willful unreliable narrator bias. For instance, almost all of us don't listen to a single word that Cersei says unless it can somehow be backed by hard evidence because she's deemed unreliable, mostly for thinking the Tyrells are plotting against her House. And by the way, they totally are. But anyway, yet when Tyrion says something or Jon or Robb or anyone else, we tend to take it as cold fact. Even when it's something like,

"Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined. She takes caution for cowardice and dissent for defiance. And she is greedy. Greedy for power, for honour, for love". -Tyrion to "Aegon"

This has to be the single most quoted line on Cersei. There is certainly some truth in it, but it's coming from a guy who just had this entire family turned against him, his wife stripped from him (pretty forced marriage but still counts), and been sentenced to basically permanent exile by the person he is talking about. Oh, and he was forced to choke his lover to death and kill his father. I'm thinking that Tyrion is a pretty unreliable narrator when it comes to discussing Cersei. But I've never seen anyone ever bring that up or taking his word as anything less than gold (Get it? Because he's a Lannister? No? Ok, I'm sorry.)

Anyway, it seems that people have a willful bliss to ignore some information and accept other information simply because one character or another says it, regardless of how reasonable or completely absurd it is.

**A_Dane** · November 17, 2012, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Karakoran

You know since this is kind of open, I'm just going to go out and say that pretty much everyone who reads ASOIAF seems to suffer from a willful unreliable narrator bias. For instance, almost all of us don't listen to a single word that Cersei says unless it can somehow be backed by hard evidence because she's deemed unreliable, mostly for thinking the Tyrells are plotting against her House. And by the way, they totally are. But anyway, yet when Tyrion says something or Jon or Robb or anyone else, we tend to take it as cold fact. Even when it's something like,

"Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined. She takes caution for cowardice and dissent for defiance. And she is greedy. Greedy for power, for honour, for love". -Tyrion to "Aegon"

This has to be the single most quoted line on Cersei. There is certainly some truth in it, but it's coming from a guy who just had this entire family turned against him, his wife stripped from him (pretty forced marriage but still counts), and been sentenced to basically permanent exile by the person he is talking about. Oh, and he was forced to choke his lover to death and kill his father. I'm thinking that Tyrion is a pretty unreliable narrator when it comes to discussing Cersei. But I've never seen anyone ever bring that up or taking his word as anything less than gold (Get it? Because he's a Lannister? No? Ok, I'm sorry.)

Anyway, it seems that people have a willful bliss to ignore some information and accept other information simply because one character or another says it, regardless of how reasonable or completely absurd it is.

IMO, while I can see what you mean, you're wrong about Cersei.

She aint really trustworthy to any degree, and while she is indeed right about the Tyrrels as an example, she is it for the wrong reasons. As far as i recall, she dosn't even suspect the Tyrrels being involved in Joffreys murder, blaming it all on Tyrion.. Tyrions description of her to Aegon, biased as it may be, is one of the most fitting descriptions I've seen.

Even Jaime begins to recognise there's something really wrong with her...

**Mount Suribachi** · November 18, 2012, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Karakoran

"Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined. She takes caution for cowardice and dissent for defiance. And she is greedy. Greedy for power, for honour, for love". -Tyrion to "Aegon"

This has to be the single most quoted line on Cersei. There is certainly some truth in it, .

The reason its quoted is because there's 100% truth in it! I agree that every POV must be read with the knowledge that we might be reading the POVs inherent, unconcious bias, but we must also realise that some POVs are much more biased than others. Cersei is an extreme example of bias as her thoughts, words and actions constantly contradict each other - sometimes from 1 sentance to the next. So for example, anything we learn about her marriage to Robert has to be taken with an extremely large pinch of salt - so she tells us that she loved Robert up until he called her Lyanna on her wedding night, later we learn that she was shagging Jaime and still fantasising over Rhaeghar.

Tyrion OTOH is a generally reliable narrator. He has an encyclopedic knowledge of history, heraldry and houses, he is a thinker and self-aware and self-critical. He doesn't take The Game personally and is always courteous towards his enemies when he meets them (Tywin + Cersei excepted

)

You have to know your subject - Catelyn is a more unreliable POV than Jon for example, especially where Jon or Edmure are concerned.

**Ori** · November 17, 2012, 04:40 PM

Ya, I'm not going to defend Cersei. She is kind of a stupid

.

I did think of another instance of the whole lapse in unreliable narrator thing. No one takes what Robert says about Rhaegar seriously because you know, he possibly raped (or stole) and indirectly murdered the love of his life. But 90% of ASOIAF readers take what Barristan and Mormont and Dany say about Rhaegar as the word of God, even though they're almost as unreliable as Robert, if not more so.

**deusvult6** · November 17, 2012, 08:49 PM

Dany learned her history from Viserys and has yet to sit down for a talk with Barristan about her father's rule. That scene in SoS pissed me off so much when she said "No, maybe later." Would've been a swift punch in the stomach to all her little fairy tales of the heroic prince versus the vile "dogs of the Usurper." I think she suspects some of it, but doesn't really want to hear it. To be fair, I would have reservations myself in her position.

I've never encountered anyone who took Dany's spin on Westerosi history seriously, and if I had I would certainly have straightened them out.

As for Barristan saying Rhaegar would've been a good king, he served in the King's Guard under three kings two of whom were some of the worst since Aegon's Landing. Rhaegar could've been a turnip and been better than those two. A turnip will neither burn important members of all the most powerful families nor eat, whore, and drink the realm into bankruptcy.

**Ori** · November 17, 2012, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by deusvult6

I've never encountered anyone who took Dany's spin on Westerosi history seriously, and if I had I would certainly have straightened them out.

If you're talking about Rhaegar, then you've clearly not met many L+R=J fans.

**deusvult6** · November 17, 2012, 11:37 PM

None who gave it the romantic spin. Face to face anyway.

Just over a year ago, when I first discovered the online discussion forums, I was sickened by all the Rhaegar fangirlism going around. After trying to counter some of their wild conjecture, I was swamped by horrendous flaming and never went back. I'd stuck to just discussing it in my various circles of book-readers until I found these forums by accident when trying to buy a copy of M2TW online.

I didn't think they were so much directly citing Dany as just waaay over-romanticizing everything and jumping to unfounded conclusions and treating them as hard, confirmed fact while ignoring gaping holes and monstrous counterarguments.

**megells** · November 18, 2012, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by deusvult6

I was sickened by all the Rhaegar fangirlism going around.

Careful what you say now

**ccllnply** · November 18, 2012, 04:18 PM

As Suribachi said, you have to know your character. Tyrion jokes about his hatred of his family members and is never biased, he's too intelligent for that. Cersei on the other hand is just insane and hates everyone except for her children and is incredibly bias.

Catelyn was also the same. That said, I'm extremely bias against her too. Other than the moment she captured Tyrion, I hated every second of her chapters

**Fallen Angel Ezekiel** · November 18, 2012, 08:19 PM

Targaryens are awesome, once their eventually playable they will reclaim their rightfull lands!

**The Forgotten** · November 18, 2012, 10:16 PM

Technically they are playable. In two different subs mods even.

**Fallen Angel Ezekiel** · November 19, 2012, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by The Forgotten

Technically they are playable. In two different subs mods even.

Downloaded and won! I would like to see them implemented into the main mod though as the sub mods were a bit glitchy. I like playing as the starks though as well. Eventually when I took Kings Landing with Viserys his title was King Viserys The Mad

**The Guy With No Imagination** · November 18, 2012, 10:57 PM

I noticed you signature about Robert and Rhaegar. I disagree.

The moment Robert became King however, is a different story. I'm positive if Eddard or J. Arryn had taken the throne instead, Westeros would be in a very different position as is.

Also, on a related topic to Rhaegar. I was perusing the asoiaf forums (Dear God) and I remembered the Rhaegar was a very melancholic person. Now seeing all the fangirls there preach about R+L=J, I also recalled Alys Karstark when speaking to Jon say's he's a very (paraphrasing) "sad or melancholic person." Throughout the story it is also noted that Jon is generally a melancholic, moody person.

Akin to Rhaegar. Although I'm not a crazy. screaming fangirl, the way both characters are hammered as melancholic just seemed a way of hinting Jon's parentage.

Like father like son, no?

**maxi90** · November 19, 2012, 02:33 PM

The thing that closes the case for Raeghar is the concensus. Every charachter that gives his opinion on the mather apart from Robert has Raeghar in high steem. That´s some very conclusive evidence for me.

**Ciciro** · November 19, 2012, 06:06 PM

I doubt Robert is Jon's father. All of Roberts bastard boys look like him.

**Inarus** · November 19, 2012, 06:56 PM

The issue with arguing Baratheon genes are dominant is that Targaryen genes also appear to be dominant as do Starks... so what happens when these dominant genes clash?