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Thread: True hero of the three kingdoms

  1. #1

    Default True hero of the three kingdoms

    So I've always had this question in mind while I read the book. But who is the real hero from the three kingdoms? Which leader would have been the best? Personally, I dislike how luo guan Zhong was bias in his writing. He made Liu bei look like a hero while making cao cao the villain. So what do you guys think?

  2. #2

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    I don't think that Cao cao was really a villain. Didn't he wanted the best for the empire like Liu bei to would? I think they both are hero's but also the bad guy's whatever there goals were. it is the actions witch makes them a hero or not.
    One of the three, a name split in two, one part is not here, the other is my account name.
    I am the beginning and end of all beings, of all life
    My breath is pure and live giving, Yin and yang were mine.
    The jade emperor was my apprentice, Now i am retired, leaving the rule of the world in his hands.

    Who am i?

    -Tianzong-

  3. #3

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    The best? Well the all around best fighter in all of China that everyone was afraid of even entire armies was the Mighty Lu Bu. He at one time fought for hours against Zhang Fei (who stood 6 foot tall and carried a 100 pound spear weaponas if it were as light as a broom), Guan Yu (who stood 6 foot 5 and carried a 80 pound halberd as if it were as light as a broom), and Liu Bei (who stood about 5 foot 10 and carried one or two swords). All three together could not defeat the mightiest man alive as he may have called himself which the video games tend to describe him as such but he was cocky and good enough he likely gave himself the same or similar title. Another time, he fought SIX of Cao Cao's best men and they combined could not defeat him (this included Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Dian Wei, Xu Chu (his bodyguard after Dian Wei), Li Dian, and Yue Jing). He fought all six at once. Xu Chu and Dian Wei were two of the strongest men Cao Cao ever had.

    Cao Cao was deemed wicked because he essentially turned around and did practically the very same thing Dong Zhong had done before him and yet he and the allied generals had sought to depose earlier. He was calculating and cold. He claimed to be only in pursuit of the preservation of the Han Empire but in reality he subverted it for his own gain from within and set up his descendants to take over the Empire in time. He wrote literature and translations. He made a annotated version of Sun Tzu's Art of War yet fought against Sun Tzu's descendants. One time during a nap he was awoken and coldly murdered one of his favorite servants for waking him up. It is likely he in fact did this on purpose to undermine any chance of sneaking up on him by would be assassins. He played it off as a accident however by saying he was a light sleeper and any hint of threat caused him to react violently.

    Liu Bei is viewed by Luo Guanzhong as the hero for two major reasons. He cared for the people he ruled more than most if not all other leaders showed to the common people. For example, he refused to abandon the people to Cao Cao that fled with him from Xu Province in spite of the risk to himself it posed and against his advisors wishes. Also because the writer of the first version from which Luo Guanzhong took much information on to create his story of the Three Kingdoms, was related to one of Shu's generals. I think it is "Records of the Three Kingdoms" by Chen Shou whose father was Chen Shi, one of the officers of the Shu Han Kingdom. For these reasons he is viewed as the main protagonist of the Three Kingdoms novel. Liu Bei is sometimes called the "King Arthur" of the East, though in reality, King Arthur would be the "Liu Bei" of the West, since Liu Bei came first.

    Sun Jian was supposedly descended from Sun Tzu. He was a fairly capable leader who forged a kingdom out of next to nothing. Yet his legacy was short lived. Sun Ce was his most capable son who might have ended the whole question of the Three Kingdoms well early on had he lived. His brother proved to be far more cautious and perhaps even subject to changing his mind in not so constructive ways. Sun Quan made two costly mistakes that would forever haunt him and his kingdom's future. He withdrew from Sun Ce's planned attack after his brother's death and then he listened to advisors to attack Guan Yu in Jing and fracture the alliance to the detriment and ultimate cost of both kingdoms. Both lost many soldiers and good leaders as well as a great deal of resources that could have been used to crush Wei when they had the best opportunity. That of after the fall out of Chi Bi, which was said to cost Wei so many soldiers that Cao Cao essentially had to wait a generation or two until he was strong enough to invade again. That maybe an exaggeration but it did cost him enough time, money, soldiers, and resources that he was very vulnerable to the two southern allied kingdoms for years.

    Yuan Shao, like that evidently of his sons, was a rather incompetent leader when it came to war. He was very indecisive who changed his mind practically daily depending on which advisor spoke to him last. His sons were not much better. His kingdom was doomed to failure despite it being one of the largest and most powerful at the time. His brother was a bit more capable but more rash as well since he took chances or opportunities a bit too soon or too blatantly in a manner that did not anger one or all the other kingdoms.

    Gongson Zan, while he was a fairly good fighter and leader in war, for example during the alliance against Dong Zhou, also struggled to heed good advice but that was not his worst issue, since he still was a bit better than Shao at that. His main failure was in his inability to capitalize on good opportunities. He commanded the elite Baima (White Horse) Cavalry. He also tended to depend too much upon cavalry.

    Dong Zhou was a ruthless tyrant who abused his power and opportunities. When invited to quell trouble in the capital, he instead took control himself and earned the anger of all the other kingdoms by compelling them to unite against him. He even managed to earn the desperation and anger of one of his better officers, Wang Yun who plotted against him and used his lovely adopted daughter to lure Lu Bu to his support the same way Dong Zhou did from Ding Yuan.

    The most noble and heroic of all the heroes was Zhao Yun, because he of all the best generals (knights) never betrayed his principals. He also sacrificed and risked his own life many times in the cause of his heroism something even the mighty Lu Bu, though a tough fighter proved he lacked the same conviction of to bravery. Lu Bu would likely not have risked his life for others the way Zhao Yun did time and again.

    The most gifted leader/fighter combos are: (well there are several in the running): 1. Xu Shu (first advisor to Liu Bei who was a skilled fighter and a thinker better I say even than Zhuge Liang since Zhuge lacked two important skills, leadership in the field and the ability to either trust others or designate authority to others (this is the very reason he ends up dying in fact he overworked because he could not trust others to designate any authority too. He also showed he could not lead in the field as well as he could on paper because any slight change of events in his plans he usually withdrew to campaign again the next season. He does not show the ability to change his plans in the field and press on.) 2. Deng Ai (He proved himself skilled at both in the later Wei Campaigns), 3. Jiang Wei (probably more capable in the field than Zhuge Liang but lacked the trust of his leaders as much nor the skills to navigate diplomacy to remove threats to allow him to perform his duties to top form) 4. Lu Meng (of Wu who had fairly good fighting and tactical skills).

    Honorable mentions: Guan Yu, Zhao Yun, Xiahou Dun, Huang Gai, Huang Zhong, Gang Ning, Zhong Hui, Sun Ce, Sun Jian, Zhang Liao

    The best strategists? in no particular order: Cheng Gong, Guo Jiao, Jia Xu, Zhuge Liang, Deng Ai, Sima Yi, Sima Shi, Lu Xun, Zhou Yu, Jiang Wei, Xu Shu, and probably a few more I left off.

    Sima Yi is probably the best overall strategist and leader because unlike Zhuge, he does have some understanding of others and designating authority and he is a little more capable of leading troops in the field and changing his plans with out calling off his expensive campaigns.

    The best Horsemen and or Cavalry commanders are Ma Teng, Ma Chao, Zhao Yun, Gongsun Zan, and Zhang Xiu.

    The best marine or pirate leaders? Gang Ning, Zhou Tai, and Cai Mao.

    Most capable princes of leaders of the first generation (re: Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Shima Yi, Sun Jian, etc): Cao Pi, Liu Fang, Zhang Bao, Guan Xing, Guan Ping, Sima Shi, and Sun Ce.

    Most under rated fighters: 1. Wei Yan, 2. Yan Yan 3. Ling Tong

    Most under rated leaders/strategists: 1. Chen Gong 2. Xu Shu 3. Han Sui 4. Lady Zhurong 5. Wei Yan

    It depends on what you consider to be a hero? A good fighter? A good strategist? A good leader? Respect and integrity in leadership? Intelligence? Strength? Heroic deeds? Exceptional bravery by risking death?

    None of the kingdoms lasted very long. The ones that did take over did not maintain control very long. Liu Yu returned China to the lineage of the Han dynasty in what would be known as the Song Dynasty.

    My opinion are the best overall heros are:
    1. Zhao Yun - heroic and brave beyond and above all heroes in the novel. Many times put himself in danger for the sake of honor, integrity, or the safety of others. Remarkably not only did he not get killed in the extreme battle conditions he often found himself in but he rose well above normal expected outcomes. It was not unusual he would be in the thickest part of the biggest battles surrounded by enemies all around with no reinforcements forthcoming. Yet he still carried on no matter what the situation.
    2. Liu Bei - Put the common people often ahead of his own safety and well being. He was a capable leader, good fighter, and unlike Zhuge Liang, he had a gift for recognizing good characters and designating authority to capable people.
    3. Sun Ce - most able of all the Sun family leaders who was also a good fighter as well. He had the best opportunity to end the war had he lived long enough.
    4. Deng Ai - gifted capable fighter and general who fought with honor and integrity for his kingdom but like Stilicho, enemies unforeseen to him until too late plotted against him unfairly.
    5. Pang Tong - Unsung hero and often overlooked in favor his better known peers Zhuge, Sima, and Xu Shu, yet like a good spy or soldier, he braved entering a enemy camp with the largest army around and tricked them into making a fatal error. Later he again risked his life to protect others in Yi Province.
    6. Guan Yu - He ran the gauntlet to return home to his sworn brothers after finding out they were still alive. He destroyed several armies in one skillful tactical ploy in Jing against Pang De. Despite his situation and the trickery into serving a enemy while his true loyalty lay elsewhere unbeknownst to him, he retained some measure of integrity while he left and tried to make up for his faults. Though his lack of diplomacy skills lead to his downfall and drops his rank on the list of best overall heroes.
    7. Zhang Liao -the hero of hefei. It was said he stopped a massive army from Wu with only 800 men
    8. Zhou Tai - risked his life many times to save and defend his Lord, Sun Quan
    9. Liao Hua - under rated officer who comes to aid Shu at critical moments
    10. Huang Gai - lead the stealth deception attack that was the most crucial part of the success at Chi Bi
    11. Sima Yi - outwitted Zhuge Liang as often as he was outwitted by Zhuge Liang but he emerged on top in the end because he did not suffer the same weaknesses Zhuge Liang did. He could and did designate authority and trust others and could read people with enough skill to be more efficient than Zhuge.
    12. Wei Yan - Foretold of the betrayal of Fei Yi who ensured the downfall of Shu Han. Wei Yan was proven right and Zhuge and Fei Yi wrong. There were other events where he was shown to have the right answer over even Zhuge Liang. He was a brave and skilled fighter as well who Liu Bei trusted but Zhuge never did. Liu Bei was right not Zhuge. He was ostensibly known as the sixth Tiger General.
    Last edited by Cincinatus; November 17, 2012 at 08:48 PM.
    "It is worth while for those who disdain all human things for money, and who suppose that there is no room either for great honor or virtue, except where wealth is found, to listen to his story."
    - Livy 3.26

  4. #4

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Cincinatus, what about Lu Bu?

  5. #5

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Zhao Yun is the best hero in my opinion.

  6. #6

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Quote Originally Posted by lekseus View Post
    Cincinatus, what about Lu Bu?
    I mentioned him in the list above. Yes he was a great fighter. The best in the Three Kingdoms period by most all accounts. However, he was not a hero. And when his life was threatened in the end he did not have the same caliber of courage to face it as men like Zhao Yun. I also mentioned he faced on not one but at least 2 occasions several of the other best fighters in China and they could not defeat him. However, his fighting skill alone does not qualify him as a Hero. And few among them all can list the heroic deeds that Zhao Yun performed. Even by the standards back them, Lu Bu, by his actions against Ding Yuan and later Dong Zhou earned him a rather despicable reputation. So he was not very likely considered a true hero even then.

    Zhao Yun is also the figure frequently depicted in the box art for the games such as the Dynasty Warrior series. Given his story it is probably no surprise many seem to agree he is the most heroic figure in the story.

    I probably still did not get all the best figures listed in the above, but I did try to name the most notable. There are over 700 named major characters in the book.
    Last edited by Cincinatus; November 18, 2012 at 04:23 PM.
    "It is worth while for those who disdain all human things for money, and who suppose that there is no room either for great honor or virtue, except where wealth is found, to listen to his story."
    - Livy 3.26

  7. #7
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Don't forget that Lu Bu assasinated the person who razed the imperial city, looted the imperial tombs, dethroned a sitting Emperor, murdered members of the royal family, and usurped imperial power for himself. After assassinating Dong Zhuo, he then restored full control of the government to the Han Court instead of taking power himself. I think that should be taken into account when discussing Lu Bu's character.

    Using actual history (SGZ, ZZTJ, etc.), not the fictional novel, who would you say are the heroes of the era?
    Member of the Imperial House of Hader - Under the Benevolent Patronage of y2day
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  8. #8

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    Using actual history (SGZ, ZZTJ, etc.), not the fictional novel, who would you say are the heroes of the era?
    Caocao and Zhou Yu.

  9. #9

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    can we please be specific saying all these "facts" listed here are mostly in the novel Romance of the Three kingdoms and is not REAL HISTORICAL facts , LU BU did NOT fight all these people at once blah blah , its bad enough the Japanese is ruining Chinese history (pun very much intended) by thier Games , one should not misguide people who are new to this timeline in history and games related

  10. #10

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Fu Rong and his son Fu Qian are heroes in my book, the actual history, and in the novel. They are the unsung heroes no one mention. I used to think cao cao was a traitor, but the fact was the dynasty was crumbling and the emperor allow the enemies to take control because he cant depend on himself, penniless, and even after the battle of Chi Bi cao cao never muster any armies from the northern part of china to supply his arm, and those areas remain untouched by war and are well govern. After all maintain peace, not straining the civilian, and not take any sons from their family is a real hero. Even Shu and Wu had to muster forces all over their districts and strain on taxes for expedition. While the Wei forces maintain a strong front and using armies from the border county

  11. #11

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    Don't forget that Lu Bu assasinated the person who razed the imperial city, looted the imperial tombs, dethroned a sitting Emperor, murdered members of the royal family, and usurped imperial power for himself. After assassinating Dong Zhuo, he then restored full control of the government to the Han Court instead of taking power himself. I think that should be taken into account when discussing Lu Bu's character.

    Using actual history (SGZ, ZZTJ, etc.), not the fictional novel, who would you say are the heroes of the era?
    Lu Bu would have taken power and ruled with Wang Yun but he was defeated by Li Jue and Guo Si (with the help of Jia Xu).

    Using history the greatest hero is Cao Cao without a doubt.

    Also everything
    Cincinatus in his first large post is fiction.

  12. #12

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Lu Bu is the

  13. #13

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmar Heldenhamer View Post
    Lu Bu is the
    Lu Bu didn't really do anything apart from betraying anyone who he served, when he was a Lord in his own right he was a drunkard and ignored the advice of his men.

  14. #14
    john duca's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Zhou Yu..in what clan is he in the game?

  15. #15

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Quote Originally Posted by john duca View Post
    Zhou Yu..in what clan is he in the game?
    Sun Ce's force

  16. #16
    disorder's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Zhang Liao is one of my favorites, it was said that babies stoped crying if you mentioned his name.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    I enjoyed the story of Guan Yu and naturally in the later chapters of the novel his son Guan Xing who following his father death also cracked many a skulls. ლ(ಠ益ಠლ
    But really the period had too many great characters to mention.
    I also liked Sun Ce prior to Sun Jian's death when he became a bit brutal for my liking.
    Zhou Yu was great in the chapters set around the Red Cliffs campaign.
    Lu Meng out of all the characters reminds me most of myself.
    Lu Xun's story was also great.
    Last edited by Stario; July 22, 2013 at 01:35 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Quote Originally Posted by disorder View Post
    Zhang Liao is one of my favorites, it was said that babies stoped crying if you mentioned his name.
    I believe that it was in the Wu Kingdom where babies would cry at the mention of his name (after the battle of Hefei)

  19. #19

    Default Re: True hero of the three kingdoms

    Zhao Yun is one of the 5 Tiger Generals and one of the few to live to an old age despite him appearing in many battles and often vastly outnumbered. Plus if there is any truth to his stories he is one of the few figures who did not betray his morals even when tempted that others who were also strong and great characters failed to do. For example, though he was tempted to leave a bad leader like Gongsun Zan, he did not until he was defeated and Zhao Yun compelled to leave and look for new work.

    I like my list above for the reasons I listed. The figures on that list behaved in true Hero fashion and for the most part unselfishly so. Whereas others often did things for greed, money, treasures, or power or may have started out heroic but was corrupted by the power they gained absolutely like the old saying goes.

    Lu Bu, was no doubt the greatest fighter of all, and one of the best generals in the field though not the best strategist as supposedly he did not always take good advice when it mattered and thus the reason why he lost to Cao Cao early on in the wars even though he was close to defeating Cao Cao himself. Lu Bu however, had a habit supposedly of turning on his father figures or leaders or masters, however you want to put it. This can not be just fiction since it is such a strong element in the story. Besides the Moss Roberts translation quotes other sources in the text and specifies controversies between the actual history, the Three Kingdoms novel, and the earlier more historical work by Chen Shou. You must also remember the author of Records of the Three Kingdoms, or the more historical work, is technically a bit biased since the author was a resident originally of Shu-Han and a descendent of one of Liu Bei's generals. If Lu Bu had better mental discipline perhaps he would have heeded more advice and done a better job overall. You also must remember despite the idea he killed Dong Zhou, he also Served him even when it was pretty clear what he was doing was wrong since most of the other lords and governors allied against Dong Zhou and attacked him. So if Lu Bu had such great character and heroic qualities, should he not have done something about Dong Zhou then? Perhaps even before the fighting started? And what about Ding Yuan? Was he not a capable leader that Lu Bu served? I have read nothing that said he was anything like Dong Zhou or evil or ruthless or a overall bad, corrupt, or incapable leader. Yet why did Lu Bu leave his service? Even if how he left is fictional. Did he not serve him first?

    If you believe the stories of Guan Yu, then sure he did betray his ethics by serving Cao Cao after he lost track of Liu Bei, but he did redeem himself by leaving and had stated his service upon condition of finding Liu Bei before he agreed. Though, if there is any truth to that part of the tale he did kill 2 of Yuan Shao's best generals. Even though you say it is a fictional tale, most sources also say it is in fact mostly true in the 70-80% range. And though some things are obvious what is fictional, plenty of sources do state things that are either contradicting history or flat out fancy such as the existence of Zhou Tai and the magic of the Zhang brothers who lead the Yellow Turban Rebellion.

    One obvious problem I have with Cao Cao is, basically in his own words, he is a tyrant little different from Dong Zhou, because of him stating often he served the Han but that was a farce and he actually more like kept the Han Emperor prisoner. He saw what Dong Zhou did and wanted to fight against it, and even kill him, yet he later turns around and does essentially the same things he saw and disliked in Dong Zhou except perhaps that he did not act quite like the gluttonous leisure seeker and tormenter Dong was, his behavior with the reigning dynasty and Emperor however was little different. By his own words and claims, did he not present the very picture of a tyrant he painted himself as being against? He claimed he was in service, loyal to, and filial to the Emperor, yet several members of the royal family felt controlled and imprisoned as stated by letters sent out to aid from without. Why would Cao Cao write laws as if they came from the Emperor and arguably not even consult said Emperor? He was supposedly a subordinate of the Emperor that never acted like one. And if also, he were a true hero of heroic character, then why would any other figure of heroic character basically defect from not the Han but from Cao Cao and Wei? Why was there fighting at all? Part of the reason the other kingdoms became independent and kingdoms was the behavior of Cao Cao and his treatment of the Han Emperor, plus his family at least later deposed a couple of them until they got one they could more easily control, though this may not be directly linked to Cao Cao, it is certainly due to his actions which lead up to the circumstances that allowed the Cao family to so mistreat the Emperor's. Cao Cao may never have technically declared himself Emperor though he had the power, he did essentially act like an Emperor in all but name and more or less positioned his family where they could take over. It is likely he planned or foresaw the actions that would follow his death. Cao Cao was heroic when he planned to risk his life and possibly sacrifice himself when he planned and tried to go after Dong Zhou alone, but there ever after his actions became more and more akin to Dong Zhou, with the exception of the claim of his murder of family members though supposedly by a misunderstanding. I still do not see it as excusable. He acted rashly, something Cao Cao rarely if ever did there after and I find little evidence he was ever so rash before with the possible exception of his attempt to take out Dong Zhou alone. Cao Cao, generally was alot of things but I would not readily say he was rash and foolish. So, if there is any truth to his murder of family members, then he had little reason to do so unless perhaps it was either a conscious but hidden or a subconscious plan to create fear and uncertainty in would be plotters against him as he ascended to power similar to what he did to his loyal servant who awoke him in the night and he killed. That makes more sense to me given his character than his paltry excuse that he thought they were going to turn him in based on less than reasonable evidence and conclusions.

    You could conceivably argue what made him more hostile and perhaps as we would put it today, tyrannical and belligerent was the murder of his father, who, by all historical accounts discovered so far was a pretty honorable man. Maybe this heinous crime near the beginning of the events that would color and create the Three Kingdoms period had a profound and sadly rather negative impact upon the character of Cao Cao. Neither his father or his grandfather, the so called Eunuch and adoptive father of Cao's father, displayed any dishonorable tyrannical type characteristics for which Cao Cao later displayed in spades. The crime committed against him may well have been blamed upon one of the governor's/warlords with whom he started a war and invaded later. And may well have been the sole cause. This in a way confounds one as related to the story of his murder of other family members. Why would one who would so callously kill a family related to him show or have any concern for another murdered by someone else? His character is complex, maybe he was a very bad person in person as his persona illustrated. Maybe he was as cruel and deceitful and ruthless and callous as the stories make him out to be, or maybe, like some modern rock stars, it was all part of an act to achieve power and control, perhaps even honorably through the Emperor. Perhaps he even planned this show with the Emperor so the Emperor could appeal to the senses and plight of the people more and Cao Cao could take the flak and do the necessary dirty work that is required by a ruling power. Maybe. Maybe all the stories about him and his murder of his family members and his servant are just that stories. Or maybe this was an act with actual bad behavior behind it. Perhaps he really did murder members of his family and tell that story. Maybe they really were plotting against him or wanted to have him captured. Maybe he did the crimes and then fluffed the stories about them to gain some twisted sense of reputation that would in his mind instill fear in others who might otherwise turn on him. Or perhaps the truth is some mix or somewhere in between all of that. I believe if he did any of these things they were not unplanned or by some rash behavior. Such a thing is uncharacteristic of Cao Cao as he is rarely pushed into anything remotely indicative of foolish or rash behavior. I know there are rock stars that create a persona of some goth person or twisted vampire like character or so on but yet in reality they are very conservative and family oriented. Cao Cao may have done this as a show to create an image he thought others would fear or respect or both or perhaps he did them by accident and added them as character to earn that or maybe he really did the heinous things and not only create the stories but truths about his character. I personally do not think he depended heavily upon such a tactic though he may have employed it and used it to develop his reputation more. He was more of a man of action than of propaganda. He was very active no matter what story you read or listen to about him. He did put himself in danger and at risk like other of the "Hero" candidates, but unlike them, he also often created the circumstances that made these situations dangerous by invading other provinces and forcing his ill gotten will and influence upon them or acting based upon fear or delusion. Though he was not rash, Cao Cao was sometimes prone to delusions or fears based upon his behaviors and treatment of others which logically would more than earn their ire. When he murdered his family, he had bowed out of the attempt upon Dong Zhou's life fearing or believing he would be caught or turned in. So when his family members were gone, his delusions got to him and he feared the worst. Again, it was sort of a hades he created for himself. This is typical of what I have seen in Cao Cao.

    Even the famous battle of Red Cliffs, he shows his tendency to creating his own torment. Perhaps of all his traits, this sense of fear and delusion was his worst and most negative at least for his own future's sake and not per say as a moral quality toward all humans. This sort of thing is typical in tyrannical behavior. When tyrants raise to and gain power, all those they wronged or pushed around or hurt to get to the top tend to haunt them afterwards or at least set up fears of revenge or rebellion against them in much the same manner as the tyrant him or her self gained that power in the first place. He illustrates this with his servant whom he killed upon being startled awake, toward his family, toward Dong Zhou and his officers when he was plotting against him, and at Chi Bi. At Chi Bi, he was tricked in to chaining his ships together. He created his own problem, but this time not so much from his fear or delusions of his wrongs coming back to haunt him as much as his need for control. In this case control over the seas and his men's sicknesses. This may have been the reason too he did not want Guan Yu to leave his service. Yet though Guan Yu let him go, Guan Yu himself is later killed by a combined Wu and Wei attack. Then again, the image of the Ghost of Guan Yu later haunts both kingdoms on the battlefield, sometimes in the form of his sons. The one place Cao and later sons tended to act a bit rashly on, was threats or at least perceived threats to their power and position, which was probably aggravated at least for Cao Cao, by his fears and delusions. In a strange, twist, there were times he turned these very fears against his enemies who seemed to share some of those same fears. This may prove he had somewhat of a grasp upon this fear or was at least aware of it.

    Another note, it may have substantially hurt the Cao family and the prospects for the future since Cao's eldest son died too young. He may or may not have been more capable then Cao Pi and perhaps he may or may not have had the same will to overthrow the Emperor, and who knows what different route the family and descendants may have taken, but we will never know. Events may well have been different then how they played out. What we do know is that Cao Pi's line and dynasty as relates to ruling China ended with Jin.

    Pang Tong basically saw a possible threat to his boss and put himself at risk and ultimately sacrificed himself to spare his boss. Self sacrifice is a pretty high honor among heroes. Not to say that needless sacrifice or human sacrifice practices are in the remotest comparable to that sort of lofty aspiration. Thus Pang Tong displayed unselfish heroic character and quality. It is unlikely he expected to die however but he was more willing to risk himself than his leader just in case and he foresaw a chance of danger.

    Though, he is not mentioned much in the novel one of my favorite characters and candidates as a hero was Xu Shu, not the Xu Chu who became Cao Cao's bodyguard btw. He was the first advisor to Liu Bei and may well have proven more capable than Zhuge Liang given, Zhuge's less than stellar record for knowing who to designate authority to (Mi Fang - trusted but proved incapable, Wei - capable but mistrusted by Zhuge to the detriment of Shu-Han since Wei was right since the one who ordered his murder betrayed Shu Han but Wei Yan never did, his invasions of Wei that proved costly, his trust of Ou Dou as Emperor of Shu Han when Liu Bei told him if his son or sons were incapable to lead himself another example of his lack of knowing who belonged where, and so on.) Zhuge was a capable strategist but failed in 2 critical areas of a good leader, knowing who was capable of what and who to trust with what, and leading armies in the field. He was good at strategizing on paper but when it came to execution, his efforts proved fallible. He was incapable of leading a successful invasion and often forced to turn back at the most mundane and inexcusable of reasons to call off a costly invasion and worse only to lead another costly invasion not long after and put the kingdom at severe financial and resources deprived risks. I doubt either Pang Tong, had he lived, or Xu Shu would have made such mistakes. Xu Shu was a fairly competent soldier and fighter in the field so, I would bet on his horse over Zhuge Liang as being capable of leading a successful invasion or if not then putting the nation in dire straights economically or giving responsibility to the wrong people and taking it away from the right ones like Zhuge did. Pang Tong never got much of a chance to prove himself but, he seemed to have more experience and even more wisdom than Zhuge who prior to this had lived mostly as a hermit. Pang Tong showed that he was at least a capable spy and at most even a modest soldier in the field of battle as well when he personally lead from the front, though it got him killed.

    I do not doubt Zhuge's motives and spirit however, I do believe he was honest and tried to do right by the people and Liu Bei but, he over extended himself. He tried to do everything himself, he trusted the wrong people in the wrong positions and did not trust the right people in the right positions and was incapable of leading an invasion to it's conclusion. Not only did he suffer at the field commander role but in the field he did not always make the best most effective call in the field when something went wrong from his original plans, though he made a good effort to have back ups to his plans, he did not make enough effort to lead based on the direction of the battle sufficient to elicit victories such that he could make his campaigns a complete success rather than just a stalemate.

    Zhou Yu was pretty capable. Though it maybe controversial who truly created the plan or how much credit goes to who, the fact is, he was essentially in overall command of both the Shu and Wu armies at the Battle of Chi Bi. He was no doubt capable in his own right and even if Zhuge offered up some plans and even some back up measures, like I said before, he likely would have failed in areas Zhou Yu clearly did not. Zhou had spent many years leading and in combat. He had more experience than Zhuge. I it is unlikely too the would have made the same mistakes in personnel as Zhuge did since as proven, those he designated to take over after he was gone had proven to be valid choices and those he designated to lead certain specific functions in battle also paid off. He was one of the men of the army too so I am sure his compadre senses were more keen among his army than Zhuge's. Zhou Yu did not make a habit of withdrawing his army at the slightest inconveniences either like Zhuge apparently had done nor did Zhou try to do EVERYTHING himself like is at least implied in stories about Zhuge. Thus his command structure was surely much more sound. Had he and Sun Ce lived, it is very likely they would have conquered the north in short order as they had conquered much of the south to form the Kingdom of Wu in the first place. They surely would have succeeded where Zhuge later repeatedly failed.

    I would even declare He Jin was a fairly capable figure and even perhaps a hero. He went out like Julius Ceasar, however, unlike Julius, he did not seek power for himself but more like Stillicho, served his nation loyally despite the situation and odds against him doing so. He sought out a plot by the corrupt power hungry Eunuch faction and almost avoided the same kind of betrayed death as Julius having caught on to one plot. He Jin was also in charge of the forces that put down the rebellion successfully. He never tried to claim power for himself or unfairly influence the court beyond booting the Eunuchs.

    You could make arguments against Liu Bei since he did take land from a relative, Liu Zhang and what became basically the Shu-Han kingdom. Though supposedly despite pleas by his own men and citizens they encountered on the way to meet him, he refused to make a move against him. If it was true and Liu Zhang was incompetent should Liu Bei have ordered the move? Was that justified? Maybe or maybe not if so, but in light of the other events and leaders making moves, if he had done nothing at all it would likely have been added much sooner to one of the other stronger and better lead factions. Yet in most other things, even if he did have a hand in taking over, he was fairly humble and fair his choices and leadership. Though also technically, Zhang made the first move against Bei or his troops did, when compared to the story of Cao Cao and the murder of his relative in likewise type fashion, it really was not since a move was made against Liu Bei, no matter what the cause he then had to act in his own self defense. Where as in the case of Cao Cao, there is much less wiggle room or clarity that he was ever in danger or justly perceived as such.

    Liu Bei however, also exhibits plenty of lofty qualities and enough so that he is often looked upon by governors as heirs to their power even over the favor of their own offspring. Something must be said about his quality and character if even aging rulers see him as a better man for the job after they retire or die over their own sons. Perhaps what Cao Cao most disliked about him was the very thing he perhaps desired within Liu Bei that he himself lacked, this sense of humility and unselfish responsible leadership in counter to his more ruthless calculating methods based perhaps more on survival instincts then true leadership qualities.

    Perhaps sometimes it is needed to have a leader of such guile and ruthlessness though I imagine it is never wanted. And in such trying times and circumstances these selfish but efficient management methods succeed and pull a people out of a storm of chaos. Or perhaps it is that, even in such trying dire times, a good person, can in fact take the reins and lead as if the people are the boss and the charge and responsibility of the leader to his or her moral and ethical requirements though based in general upon whatever culture they were raised in. I personally like to think a good person can lead in any circumstance and situation and that the more belligerent style only succeeds because the people are afraid or fooled and let such a person succeed.

    Zhou Tai certainly has heroic qualities given his constant risks and sacrifice to defend the rulers of Wu, yet, it is very likely he was fictional as was Liao Hua of the Shu-Han also likely fictional. Perhaps they are like the minor figures, soldiers, mentioned in Julius Ceasar's writings, and meant in a sense to represent soldiers or generals generically. This way anyone could feel part of the story by placing themselves in the unknown or fictionally added role/characters mentioned and perhaps though they are fictional, their characteristics are fairly historical and accurate for perhaps some or several real generals and soldiers serving in both armies.

    Though I mention Liao Hua was likely fiction, it is true that at least in the story, his character does seem to be dependable and arrives with help at just the right times in many critical moments. It stands to reason, too however, perhaps there is some element of truth to both him and Zhou Tai even if it is in some more generic form. Also if you review those characters they represent some of the more honorable traits and maybe seemingly too perfect or even fictional like modern comic book superheroes. Whether ideal or fictional or based on all the generic unnamed soldiers and generals as nod to them or some real ones of various entities or even of one or just a few entities, both characters make a strong mark and display truly heroic and perhaps overly ideal qualities. Even if fictional, these ideas must be taken into account for it must be noted what perhaps were considered as ideal goals and heroic qualities to adhere too are very well balanced represented in these characters.

    Another of my favorite though previously unmentioned names is Gan Ning, though fellow Pirate Zhou Tai is likely fiction, Gan Ning is much more likely to be historically accurate. His story is rather compelling. Here is a guy who was only out for himself and basically a criminal who turned it around to became a top general, knight, and a hero. Now, tell me that is not a dramatic story of interest? His story is perhaps the most extreme of all characters. Someone who went from the bottom to well at least near the top and from the lowest rank of what amounts to evil or criminal behavior to among the most respected and lofty ranks.

    The biggest reasons the Wu faction did not end up on top or maybe viewed as the "King Arthur's" of China is that Sun Jian and Sun Ce died too soon and Sun Quan though a fairly capable leader did not display the same urgency to act and aggression when called for and confident immediate decisions and actions that his father and brother both showed. Maybe if they had more time they could have built up a fairly indomitable force to take the lead in China and perhaps show their best characteristics and longevity and solid rule to compare to or to surpass that of Liu Bei. However, neither was able to rule long enough to make a strong or solid enough mark upon the events of ancient China to earn such recognition sadly. They both died too soon and too young relative to their reigns. They deserved more and had the gusto to make such an impact. They had the same zeal as Liu Bei's Tiger Generals, and the same capacity for strategy and leadership as the best advisers and generals like Sima Yi, Zhuge Liang, or Zhou Yu or others. They displayed this by forming a modest kingdom from a fairly small force like from nothing to a power to be reckoned with. They each did this in their own right as when Jian died his son did not have enough means to succeed him and take over from where Jian left off, and instead had to basically start over again. Perhaps this was a boon to him and gave him stronger and better leadership qualities that in turn made him a power to be reckoned with.

    The Yuan clan are one of those that could have or should have been a great and positive force to be reckoned with but ineptitude and indecision in the north and rashness and maybe lack of patience in the south doomed both great houses of Yuan to failure. Their offspring were for the most part not only no better than they but perhaps worst since in the case in the north it actually split the once powerful Yuan army among the successors.

    The Xiliangs and the Ma clan to the west were great prospects. Somehow it seems that Ma Chao did not inherit all of his fathers better qualities like wisdom, patience, and trust. It was said in some circles that Ma Chao was every bit as capable as Lu Bu and maybe even more so. He certainly like Lu Bu nearly toppled Cao Cao in a similar type of campaign with mainly just himself and one or two notable generals and advisors also like Lu Bu. However through deceit and manipulation their clan fell apart and was over run. Like Lu Bu, Ma Chao had alot of fighting and physical capabilities but sadly also like Lu Bu he as also prone to trickery and a failure to follow good advice or to have good enough strategies of his own to avoid the pitfalls that encountered him.

    Yet today, Guan Yu is thought of as a god, and Liu Bei as the noble leader. These are two of the characters who stand out most simply because of how they are viewed even into the modern era. At least Zhang Liao, is thought of in a nearly similar legendary fashion as a source of fear and scary stories to children. Then to there is Zhao Yun who classically seems to characterize the noble white knight mythos and supposedly even often wore white colored armor into battle. The title truly befits him does it not? Cao Cao won in the end, sort of. In point of fact, Sima Yi was pulling most of the strings in Cao Cao's later years and into his family's future and like Cao Cao, his family usurped Cao's family in similar fashion and much to the Chinese prophetic proverb of what goes around comes around. That is actually just how I summarize it into a similar motto we have in the west, but there is a circular sense of history and consequences and actions over not just one life time but reincarnations and a family's lifetime present in Chinese culture from what I have read.

    There can be great debate on whether this mythos of reincarnation and circular events of what one sews one begets in harvest mostly between Cao Cao and Liu Bei, I think about some previous emperor and a general who got the shaft in some way and this reincarnated life was some sort of redemption. If that were the case, would it not make sense that the ideals and goals of Cao Cao, were of greater substance than they were or at least as noble as those implied with in Liu Bei? It hardly seems redemption if this reincarnated life repeated similar mistakes and offenses against him to the other and to the many instead of being even more noble. Because even if this were true, then is it not a new life? And in this new life, Liu hardly displayed any so called lowly qualities for which he supposedly committed in a previous life. Therefore this argument to me, both in the fictional sense and the remote very remote possibility any of it is true, falls short. So, Cao Cao, came out on top, but only temporarily because the Sima family toppled him in turn then not long after the Sima family were in charge as the Jin Dynasty another dynasty claiming lineage to the Han emerged. So in the end, did the Han actually win? I find it pretty neat, humbling, and even a bit just that in the end, the tables turned back on all the usurpers. The new so called Han leader, was for his time, a fairly good and capable leader from what I read so far. And the prior two dynasties both succumbed to bad leaders and heirs and to deceitful advisors in the court. Liu Yi was also a great leader, strategist, and general. So when the Jin collapsed in part due to some planning by Liu who at one time also worked for the Jin court as a commander and like others before, in a roundabout way, usurped the throne by encouraging someone else to do it first so he would appear to be the righteous one. In point of fact however, this leader likely would have rebelled whether Liu goaded him any more or not.

    You could also debate about Jiang Wei as Zhuge's heir but sadly he too made many of the same mistakes as Zhuge Liang and also did not follow up on his successes in the field to achieve a true victory.

    Sadly, Sun Ce became a bit mental in his waning years. If that had not happened, he could have ruled very well. And yes true, there are well over 700 named major characters in the novel. I am sure there were many notable figures in the history and in the original more historical work though with perhaps as much or more of a bias toward the Shu-Han since the first author was of that faction.

    Last edited by Cincinatus; July 25, 2013 at 11:35 PM.
    "It is worth while for those who disdain all human things for money, and who suppose that there is no room either for great honor or virtue, except where wealth is found, to listen to his story."
    - Livy 3.26

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