nazism/stalinism/maoism... A result of atheism?

[Biggieboy]

As the title suggests. The argument that comes from theists quite often is that atheism has caused a lot more casualties than religious conflicts or consequences that come from theism (banning condoms, the casualties in the new world,...)

I doubt Hitler was an atheist. Not necessarily a christian, but hardly secular/atheist either. But to me it seems like they have a point with Pol Pot for example, though I may be misinformed about this. That's why I'm making this thread: DO they have a point, or don't they?

[Lazarus]

Their actions are not a result of Atheism. In fact - due to the fact that Atheists aren't a coherent single body (i.e. we don't all follow a specific dogma) Atheism didn't even enable those dictators to do what they did. Whenever you bring up something like the crusades and a theists responds with Stalin you have to realize - if you give religion to Stalin and his regime you in essence get Rasputin. If you take religion away from the crusaders you take away the authority they are appealing to to justify their actions. Those dictators did not appeal to Atheism in any way to justify their actions and I know, I know. I can already hear someone out there piping up about Hitler using Darwins theory as his handbook, much like Jesus was G. W. Bush's co-pilot. But that's wrong. Eugenics and concentration camps in fact fly right in the face of Darwins theory. It's artificial selection. Hitler - the human being (and I use the term loosely) picks who lives or dies. Not nature. That's not survival of the fittest. That's survival of the people Hitler likes most.

Anyone who suggests that Atheism is responsible for what they did is just grasping for straws. Atheism is not responsible. Their actions do not reflect on Atheists as we didn't all convene at the college of Atheistic Cardinals (scientists?) and approve these actions going forward.

[Dragus]

"Gott mit uns", or "God is with us" was on the belt buckle of Wehrmacht soldiers fighting for Nazi Germany in World War II.

[truth1337]

As the title suggests. The argument that comes from theists quite often is that atheism has caused a lot more casualties than religious conflicts or consequences that come from theism (banning condoms, the casualties in the new world,...)

I doubt Hitler was an atheist. Not necessarily a christian, but hardly secular/atheist either. But to me it seems like they have a point with Pol Pot for example, though I may be misinformed about this. That's why I'm making this thread: DO they have a point, or don't they?

I would have to disagree. Marxism - the ideology that murdered 150 million people in peace time - is not atheist, but Satanist. It is obsessed with being the opposite of Christianity and love in EVERY single aspect. It tells its followers to question everything of the past, with the meaning of rejecting it, not going back to it when seeing there were good reasons for why things were as they were, and they teach hate and war between everyone - man against woman, rich against poor, race against race, and so on. So it is not atheism, but Satanism - though they sometimes believe they are "atheists" or "enlightened" when they reject all love and emotion - that is the root of the evils of the Satanic Marxist religion.

[Kissaki]

I would have to disagree. Marxism - the ideology that murdered 150 million people in peace time - is not atheist, but Satanist. It is obsessed with being the opposite of Christianity and love in EVERY single aspect.

Quite the opposite, you mean. What Marxism preaches is essentially what Jesus preached. Jesus was certainly a staunch anti-capitalist.

It tells its followers to question everything of the past, with the meaning of rejecting it, not going back to it when seeing there were good reasons for why things were as they were, and they teach hate and war between everyone - man against woman, rich against poor, race against race, and so on.

Uh.... Did you get that definition from Conservapedia or something?

So it is not atheism, but Satanism - though they sometimes believe they are "atheists" or "enlightened" when they reject all love and emotion - that is the root of the evils of the Satanic Marxist religion.

I think you need to read up on Marxism before commenting on it.

[Dragus]

We do not reject emotions, and definitely do not reject love or personal morality. To be an atheist is to simply not accept a made-up explanation without evidence. In fact, many of us take pride in our choice to embrace love for fellow humans and morality without having the threat of a fictional being or eternal punishment in our minds. We also largely favor democracy and secularism in matters of civic affairs.

To compare us with counterparts in totalitarian (and now far less-prominent) societies is nonsensical. I also find it insulting on a personal level that you claim we advocate a being we do not even believe exists. ("Satan")

I will never understand how the writings of a man who wanted to better conditions for the workers of his society became a topic of religious discussion, or how it makes us immoral in the slightest. You absolutely cannot force the assumption that all Marxists are Stalinists, and you absolutely cannot force the assumption that all economic leftists are non-religious. Many of my fellow socialists are deeply religious, and furthermore their christian-leanings are what pushed them towards their economic standpoints of helping their fellow citizens.

In short, I find any connections drawn between religious belief (or lack thereof) and government affairs ridiculous and out of place. They have no role together nor should they.

[Lazarus]

As for Enzos comment I have no idea where the second half went but he's right in the "Hitler was not Christian" part - and that Theists or Atheists try to associate that lunatic with a belief system and then blame the belief system for his actions only highlights that every camp has their idiots.

[Enzo]

Hitler wasn't an atheist but he didn't like Christianity, he would have preferred a German religion like Shinto or Islam. A warrior religion, something that would encourage the German people to die a heroic death for the Fatherland. For Islam what he had in mind is a successful Islamic invasion and conversion of Europe in the middle ages but then the Arabs would have been ill adjusted to the climate allowing superior Germanic forces to fight back and invade the Islamic empire, whereupon Germany would have become the head of a new Islamic empire.

[Jaketh]

Hitler wasn't an atheist but he didn't like Christianity, he would have preferred a German religion like Shinto or Islam. A warrior religion, something that would encourage the German people to die a heroic death for the Fatherland. For Islam what he had in mind is a successful Islamic invasion and conversion of Europe in the middle ages but then the Arabs would have been ill adjusted to the climate allowing superior Germanic forces to fight back and invade the Islamic empire, whereupon Germany would have become the head of a new Islamic empire.

Where on earth did you get that information from?

[Enzo]

Where on earth did you get that information from?

Recorded history of what Hitler actually said where do you think?


"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers [...] then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Germany

[Kissaki]

Hitler wasn't an atheist but he didn't like Christianity, he would have preferred a German religion like Shinto or Islam.

Shinto and Islam, German religions?

A warrior religion, something that would encourage the German people to die a heroic death for the Fatherland. For Islam what he had in mind is a successful Islamic invasion and conversion of Europe in the middle ages but then the Arabs would have been ill adjusted to the climate allowing superior Germanic forces to fight back and invade the Islamic empire, whereupon Germany would have become the head of a new Islamic empire.

What the hell are you talking about? Honestly, you are beginning to sound like truth1337.

He wasn't Christian at all and openly derided the faith, at least in private. I'm unclear on exactly what he believed but he probably saw himself as a Messianic figure and the Germans as God chosen people.

No, Hitler never openly derided Christianity. Exactly the opposite. While his own faith can certainly be put in question, he definitely acted the pious Christian to the people. Remember that his popularity was greatest in the south of Germany, which was also the most religious part of Germany. You would also do well to remember the three tenets of the Nazi party, the three Ks: Kinder, Kirche, Küche. Or in English: Children, Church, Kitchen. These represented the core values of the Third Reich.

[Enzo]

Shinto and Islam, German religions?

No but those were the religions Hitler appreciated because of their fighting spirit. Hitler wasn't interested in loving his enemy or turning the other cheek, Christianity was weak sauce to him.

What the hell are you talking about? Honestly, you are beginning to sound like truth1337.

Take a look at some of these quotes, they speak for themselves.

"We are the joyous Hitler youth,
We do not need any Christian virtue
Our leader is our savior
The Pope and Rabbi shall be gone
We want to be pagans once again.”
- Song sung by Hitler youth"


“The Ten Commandments have lost their validity. Conscience is a Jewish invention, it is a blemish like circumcision.”
- Rauschning, Hitler Speaks, "The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew.”
- Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler's Table-Talk"The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law,
a protest against nature.
Taken to its logical extreme,Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."


Do you now appreciate the depth of our National Socialist Movement? Can there be anything greater and more all comprehending?
Those who see in National Socialism nothing more than a political movement know scarcely anything of it.
It is more even than religion; it is the will to create mankind anew.”
- Rauschning,Hitler Speaks

No, Hitler never openly derided Christianity.

Pretty clearly he did in private if not so much in his public speech perhaps. He still wanted Christian Germans onboard after all. Had he won the war he probably would have dismantled the church in favour of a new faith based around him and German blood.

Exactly the opposite. While his own faith can certainly be put in question, he definitely acted the pious Christian to the people.

It was only for show he had no interest ion Christianity himself. He admired certain other religions but not Christianity.

Remember that his popularity was greatest in the south of Germany, which was also the most religious part of Germany. You would also do well to remember the three tenets of the Nazi party, the three Ks: Kinder, Kirche, Küche. Or in English: Children, Church, Kitchen. These represented the core values of the Third Reich.

Respectable sounding slogans, propaganda and spin.

[Kissaki]

No but those were the religions Hitler appreciated because of their fighting spirit. Hitler wasn't interested in loving his enemy or turning the other cheek, Christianity was weak sauce to him.

I'm not sure there is anything, in Hitler's Table Talks or anywhere else, where he makes a statement to that effect. Certainly not about Christianity being "weak sauce" -- quite the opposite, he saw Christianity as very useful. And indeed, the most warlike, expansionistic nations in the world have been Christian, something Hitler would have appreciated.

Take a look at some of these quotes, they speak for themselves.

"We are the joyous Hitler youth,
We do not need any Christian virtue
Our leader is our savior
The Pope and Rabbi shall be gone
We want to be pagans once again.”
- Song sung by Hitler youth"

According to whom? Do you have the original German for this, so I can verify? I know a great many songs from the Third Reich, but this one I have never heard of.

“The Ten Commandments have lost their validity. Conscience is a Jewish invention, it is a blemish like circumcision.”
- Rauschning, Hitler Speaks, "The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew.”
- Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler's Table-Talk"The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law,
a protest against nature.
Taken to its logical extreme,Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."


Do you now appreciate the depth of our National Socialist Movement? Can there be anything greater and more all comprehending?

I am fully aware of what Hitler is to have said in his Table Talks, and also in his little known second unpublished book. But none of these quotes demonstrate what you say about Shintoism, or much less Islam.

Those who see in National Socialism nothing more than a political movement know scarcely anything of it.
It is more even than religion; it is the will to create mankind anew.”
- Rauschning,Hitler Speaks


Pretty clearly he did in private if not so much in his public speech perhaps. He still wanted Christian Germans onboard after all. Had he won the war he probably would have dismantled the church in favour of a new faith based around him and German blood.

What Hitler would have done in the long run is anybody's guess. Like I said, Hitler's own faith may be put in question, but it was Christian arguments he used in order to get Christian Germans to do his bidding. Now, in the SA there was a significant portion of atheists -- on one occasion some SA members took it upon themselves to raid schools in order to remove crosses and Bibles. The people naturally complained, and Hitler immediately put a stop to it, and had the Bibles and crosses brought back.

It was only for show he had no interest ion Christianity himself. He admired certain other religions but not Christianity.

Of course it was for show. But if Christian arguments is what got the job done, you can hardly blame atheism for the calamity that followed.

Respectable sounding slogans, propaganda and spin.

Why were they used? Had Hitler's agenda been openly anti-Christian, he wouldn't have gotten in power. In public words, and deeds, he supported the Church. Hitler's private thoughts of Christianity is moot: what matters is, what sort of buttons do you need to push in order to get people to do horrible things? You can make a genocidal dogma out of atheism as well, but in this case it was Christianity.

[Menelik_I]

As the title suggests. The argument that comes from theists quite often is that atheism has caused a lot more casualties than religious conflicts or consequences that come from theism (banning condoms, the casualties in the new world,...)

I doubt Hitler was an atheist. Not necessarily a christian, but hardly secular/atheist either. But to me it seems like they have a point with Pol Pot for example, though I may be misinformed about this. That's why I'm making this thread: DO they have a point, or don't they?

You could take a shortcut and say that because they were thinking to above all authority they were ruthless beyond madness because there was no god and they were god on earth. Or they have a something they value beyond anything else, like communism or Germany, and committing atrocities as normal procedure.

of all the people you cited Pol Pot was the most insane, people were killed for writing love letters and being cooks.

Now you also have to take into account that there are 2 kind of religious folks : Those want to do god will on earth by their hands (Islamist suicide bombers) and those that leave god's work to god. The first kind can be as dangerous or crazy and Hitler and Co.

[The Dude]

Considering how atheism is a distancing from moral authority (divine in this case) to achieve personal autonomy, and Stalinism, Maoism, and Nazism are a submission to an absolute ruler, the answer to the topic's question is a resounding no.

[DDWingate]

Considering how atheism is a distancing from moral authority (divine in this case) to achieve personal autonomy, and Stalinism, Maoism, and Nazism are a submission to an absolute ruler, the answer to the topic's question is a resounding no.

I thought atheism wasn't a distinct set of rules, idealogies or specific doctrine? I didn't realize Atheism was the act of distancing oneself from moral authority to achieve personal autonomy - that sounds more like the American Dream.

[Tankbuster]

First off, any attempt to talk about Nazism, Stalinism and Maoism as if they were similar ideologies that can be analyzed or reduced to one deciding factor, is doomed. They both merit their own discussion.

To address the subtext of the question: the reason that we've seen so many new political and social ideologies in the last few centuries, does have something to do with atheism, or at least with the steady erosion of religious authority. Since more and more people have come to see through the worldview offered by the traditional religions, there was more of a tendency for people to chart their own course in life, and thus also to figure out how best to structure societies instead of deferring to the religious idea of a king as the representation of God (that was so popular before the Enlightenment).
Communism represents one of the movements that sought a new way to structure societies (after it became clear that wealth inequality was not in fact a wish of almighty God). But so does secular humanism; in fact even the creation of the United States was the attempt to create a new kind of society.

As Marx said, the moment you pluck the flowers from the chain, people will seek to break their chains and cull the living flower. It's just that -like humans are bound to do- different people came up with different ways of breaking their chains; or in the case of the ideologies in the OP, to invent new ones. Some of these ideologies were miserably failures, others survive to this day and have brought us the societies we live in today.

To blame any of this partly succesful and partly failed human experimentation on atheism, is simply asinine.

[Biggieboy]

Tankbuster,

like I said, I have serious doubts about Hitler being an atheist; my question is mostly about the other ones. I'm not claiming their ideologies are the same either, it's just the names you get to hear the most. Feel free to give more on them individually. The problem is I'm not enough informed to have an opinion either way.

[Tankbuster]

like I said, I have serious doubts about Hitler being an atheist

He wasn't.
It's notoriously hard to deduce what Hitler's real beliefs on any given topic are (given how good at manipulating he was, and how many times he pandered to crowds). For instance, while he often presented himself as a Christian, there are too many anti-Christian sentiments in his personal conversations to sustain the idea that this is actually true -though he was heavily influenced by many Christian ideas.

However, one of the consistent things in Hitler's life is his public and private contempt for atheists and adherence to faith and the supernatural.
So while his precise beliefs are hard to figure out, there's no question that it contained some form of God or Providence who was guiding his life.

I'm not claiming their ideologies are the same either, it's just the names you get to hear the most. Feel free to give more on them individually. The problem is I'm not enough informed to have an opinion either way.

That's fine: I was more responding to the argument than you in particular.

As for the others, they certainly did kill a lot of people, and some of this killing did happen because of the atheism of their doctrine: Mao in particular massacred priests and monks by the hundreds to rid his country of religion.
We can however muse on just how far one can go in propagating a personality cult before you have a personality cult -and this question certainly applies to both Mao and Stalin.

But none of this is the "result" of atheism. Atheism was one of the many factors that informed their worldview. Atheism is also one of the factors in my worldview and millions of others, yet we're no killers of millions. Clearly any causal relationship is absent.

[DaVinci]

nazism/stalinism/maoism... A result of atheism?

To a certain degree, yes. If you watch/analyse this item in mental-sociological regard, you'll be aware of the development.

These ideologies were possible due to the development of the secularisation during/after the middle-age (which has been a necessarity though), aka initially the renaissance period over the religion-wars in europe and till the french revolution period and the further social revolution period in 19th and 20th C..

The barbaric "content" of the human character survived in all these periods and its ideologies, and there is apparently no end to it.
Nazism as applied by the german fascists though is the peak of all barbaric ideologies.

Christianity (or islamism) as applied by humans is no exception there, it's only another kind of applied ideology to rule/regulate social things and the attached human society, incl. to commit barbaric acts.

I'm atheist btw..