Islam and conversion

[flopsies]

Does Islam teach anything similar to Christian evangelism? Or does it teach to let people just convert on their own free will and not through missionaries?

[General Sultan V]

Look mate, islam is nothing like Christianity.

Conversion in islam is free-will but there are also missionary work, islam encourages converting non-believers and encourages working as a missionary, atleast nowdays, in the past it was done through force at first, later dynasties and caliphates however were much more tolerant

being a non-muslim right now, right here is OK, But there is certain intolerism towards certain religions (christianity and hinduism in paritcular) however, beoming a muslim, and than converting to another religion and leaving islam puts your life at a risk, a muslim dominated/sharia ruled society gives 3 days to an apostate to convert back to islam, if he does'n, he is beheaded.

[sumskilz]

It was different at different times and under different rulers. There is also this issue:

Qur'an 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

[Beconvinced]

It was different at different times and under different rulers. There is also this issue:

Qur'an 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

The commentary: http://comparativreligion.blogspot.c...lieve-not.html

Refer ti this ayah also: http://www.ahadees.com/quran/ayat.php?surah=2&ayat=256

[SLN445]

Easier to just tax the Non-believers or convert through trade then forced conversion

[General Sultan V]

muslims are still naturally intolerent towards non-muslims and are istructed by the allah and his close subjects to entirely shun and "boycott" those who deny allah's existance (non-muslims)


I Find you people who try to defend islam whenever a question about islamic intolerence hilarious. you pretend to be oblivious from an entire book filled with hateful verses, threats ad warnings (i've meditated the quran, and have more than one quran at my house)

ص: 275 قوله تعالى : لا تجد قوما يؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر يوادون من حاد الله ورسوله ولو كانوا آباءهم أو أبناءهم أو إخوانهم أو عشيرتهم

the verse above frowns upon befriending non-blievers and is widely used by muslims when something about befriending/marrying a Kaffir (non-muslim). whenever I spoke good of a non-muslim my parents told me this verse. regardless of this verse, hate on non-muslims is wide over here, almost everyone I met embraces the Idea that non-muslims are extremist bastards who hate islam in every way and deny allah's existance and do everything to destroy islam. If it was'n for the pathetic religious people and their cowardice in my country, it would've been like 1980's america right now but noooooooooo. we must save the holy land before the infidels westernize it. sorry for the irrelevance

[Enzo]

Islam proper (not the secular form) is more than a religion it's a political ideology and complete way of life as well so conversion tends to assmilate (like the Borg Collective) and absorb whole societies rather than individuals . Generally if you live under a non-secular Islamic society you would be better to convert else you will have to become a Dhimmi and pay a special tax, all of this is detailed in the Quran. Some Muslims are Western and secularised and so ignore these parts of the Quran and only take notice of the nice parts. Christians may do that with the Old Testament but the idea is that Jesus did away with the need to follow old Jewish Law and much of it details historical ancient tribal wars and so on that don't apply today. With the Quran all of it in theory should still be followed to the letter and it still applies today as the complete infallible word and instructions of God. But it's better if they do just pick out the nice bits I wouldn't complain. The possible problem is the ones who do that may provide cover for those who aren't doing that. It's not easy to distinguish people who in theory follow the exact same religion even when in a sense they aren't.

[PointOfViewGun]

2:256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects the transgressors, and acknowledges God, has grasped the firm branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.

10:99 Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth in their entirety would have acknowledged. Would you force the people to make them acknowledge?

[Enzo]

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

[Vanoi]

Islam has some pretty violent verses, though this is due to the time situation Muhammad was in.

[Enzo]

Islam has some pretty violent verses, though this is due to the time situation Muhammad was in.

These verses aren't referring to specific tribes of people who were around at the time like in the Old Testament they refer to all non-believers/non-Muslims in general and no-one came along to abolish or make any of them redundant so they still technically apply today.

[PointOfViewGun]

These verses aren't referring to specific tribes of people who were around at the time like in the Old Testament they refer to all non-believers/non-Muslims in general and no-one came along to abolish or make any of them redundant so they still technically apply today.

9:29 Fight those who do not acknowledge God nor the Last day among the people who received the book; they do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, and they do not uphold 155 the system of truth; until they pay the reparation, in humility.

The context of the verse is the Battle of Hunayn. So, no. It's not a general verse as you suggest. It's the only surah in Quran without opening with bismillah and it's purpose is an ultimatum to polytheists in Mecca.

[Enzo]

The context of the verse is the Battle of Hunayn. So, no. It's not a general verse as you suggest. It's referring to the tribe of Hawazin.

The problem is it doesn't specify the tribe of Hawazin it just says unbelievers in general. While you may overlook this there are many millions of other Muslims who just take it to mean what it says and apply it today.

[PointOfViewGun]

The problem is it doesn't specify the tribe of Hawazin it just says unbelievers in general. While you may overlook this there are many millions of other Muslims who just take it to mean what it says and apply it today.

I was wrong about Hawazin and edited my post accordingly. You might wanna quote that now and make a new response.

[Enzo]

The context of the verse is the Battle of Hunayn. So, no. It's not a general verse as you suggest. It's the only surah in Quran without opening with bismillah and it's purpose is an ultimatum to polytheists in Mecca.

Fair enough if this was just one isolated passage but it forms part of a ongoing theme where unbelievers are to be fought until they either convert to Islam, submit themselves to Islamic domination status or die. This did begin as a religion of conquest.

"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves." 48:29

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." 2:193

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 9:5

[PointOfViewGun]

Fair enough if this was just one isolated passage but it forms part of a ongoing theme where unbelievers are to be fought until they either convert to Islam, submit themselves to Islamic domination status or die. This did begin as a religion of conquest.

"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves." 48:29

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." 2:193

48:29 Muhammad, the messenger of God, and those who are with him, are severe against the ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. Their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the ingrates with them. God promises those among them who acknowledge and do good works forgiveness and a great reward.

I wouldn't really expect them to treat people they were fighting back then with kindness. There is nothing in that verse that suggest me to kill anyone.

2:193 Fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

This verse is clearly telling you to fight back when you're being persecuted and stop fighting when they stop as well. Verses like this one below are clear that Quran only wants you to fight back when you're being attacked:

60:8 God does not forbid you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, take them, surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

Again, it's part of an ultimatum.

I could turn Harry Potter into a killer's guidebook if I take things out of context.

[Enzo]

Ok so Western secular Muslims won't see any of this as applicable today or that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean but one thing the Quran is not is just an alternative to the Bible or just a religion but it's the whole complete package.

"The mission of the Prophet was to give practical shape to the Islamic vision of the good life, by offering the world a model of an individual character and of a human state and society, all living embodiments of the principals of the Quran." Sayyid Abdul Mawdudi

In Western society Church and state remain separate to some degree the ultimate form of this being the US with it's Constitution. Christianity supports a secular society while Islam supports a theocratic state.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ok so Western secular Muslims won't see any of this as applicable today or that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean but one thing the Quran is not is just an alternative to the Bible or just a religion but it's the whole complete package.

"The mission of the Prophet was to give practical shape to the Islamic vision of the good life, by offering the world a model of an individual character and of a human state and society, all living embodiments of the principals of the Quran." Sayyid Abdul Mawdudi

In Western society Church and state remain separate to some degree the ultimate form of this being the US with it's Constitution. Christianity supports a secular society while Islam supports a theocratic state.

It doesn't matter if they see it applicable or not. It's simply not applicable. It also does mean what it seems to mean. You're simply taking things out of context to make them seem something else.

Religion is much less separated in the Western society than people claim it is. Saying that there is seperation of church and state in the West is one thing and claiming that Christianity supports a secular society is completely an other. Christianity absolutely does not support a secular society.

[Enzo]

It doesn't matter if they see it applicable or not. It's simply not applicable. It also does mean what it seems to mean. You're simply taking things out of context to make them seem something else.

But it keeps saying how non-Muslims must convert to Islam or submit themselves and pay a special non-Muslim tax. There's no reason to not think that this shouldn't still apply today here and now in a book that is meant to be the revelation of the Creator of the universe for all of mankind till the end of time. The Old Testament was for a specific tribe of people who fought against other tribes of people thousands of years ago, and the Jews weren't interested in making converts or having anyone submit to them they just wanted the land they were on.

Religion is much less separated in the Western society than people claim it is. Saying that there is seperation of church and state in the West is one thing and claiming that Christianity supports a secular society is completely an other. Christianity absolutely does not support a secular society.

There has almost always been some degree of separation between the two in the West and it has support in the gospels as well.


"And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way." Matthew 22:20-22

In Islam secularism generally has to be enforced by a military presence it doesn't really take well.

[PointOfViewGun]

But it keeps saying how non-Muslims must convert to Islam or submit themselves and pay a special non-Muslim tax. There's no reason to not think that this shouldn't still apply today here and now in a book that is meant to be the revelation of the Creator of the universe for all of mankind till the end of time. The Old Testament was for a specific tribe of people who fought against other tribes of people thousands of years ago, and the Jews weren't interested in making converts or having anyone submit to them they just wanted the land they were on.

And there are other kinds of taxes that Muslims pay but non-Muslims don't. Moreover:

We should be reminded that the context of the verse is about the War of Hunain, and fighting is allowed only for self-defense. See: 2:190-193, 256; 4:91; and 60:8-9.

Furthermore, note that we suggest REPARATION instead of Arabic word jizya. The meaning of jizya has been distorted as a tax on non-Muslims, which was invented long after Muhammad to further the imperialistic agenda of Kings. The origin of the word that we translated as Compensation is JaZaYa, which simply means compensation or, in the context of war, means war reparations, not tax. Since the enemies of Muslims attacked and aggressed, after the war they are required to compensate for the damage they inflicted on the peaceful community. Various derivatives of this word are used in the Quran frequently, and they are translated as compensation for a particular deed.

Unfortunately, the distortion in the meaning of the verse above and the practice of collecting a special tax from Christians and Jews, contradict the basic principle of the Quran that there should not be compulsion in religion and there should be freedom of belief and expression (2:256; 4:90; 10:99; 18:29; 88:21,22). Since taxation based on religion creates financial duress on people to convert to the privileged religion, it violates this important Quranic principle. Dividing a population that united under a social contract (constitution) into privileged groups based on their religion contradicts many principles of the Quran, including justice, peace, and brotherhood/sisterhood of all humanity.

Some uninformed critics or bigoted enemies of the Quran list verses of the Quran dealing with wars and declare Islam to be a religion of violence. Their favorite verses are: 2:191; 3:28; 3:85; 5:10,34; 9:5; 9:28-29; 9:123; 14:17; 22:9; 25: 52; 47:4 and 66:9. In this article, I refuted their argument against 9:29, and I will discuss each of the verses later.

Some followers of Sunni or Shiite religions abuse 9:5 or 9:29 by taking them out of their immediate and Quranic context. Sunnis and Shiites follow many stories and instructions falsely attributed to Muhammad that justify terror and aggression, which is currently used as a pretext and propaganda tool by imperialist or neocolonialist powers to justify their ongoing terror and aggression against countries with predominantly Muslim population, surely with much sophisticated weapons and destructive effect. For instance, in a so-called authentic (or authentically fabricated) hadith, after arresting the murderers of his shepherd, the prophet and his companions cut their arms and legs off, gouged their eyes with hot nails and left them dying from thirst in the desert, a contradiction to the portrayal of Muhammad's mission in the Quran (21:107; 3:159). In another authentically fabricated hadith, the prophet is claimed to send a gang during night to secretly kill a female poet who criticized him in her poetry, a violation of the teaching of the Quran! (2:256; 4:140; 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22). Despite these un-Quranic teachings, the aggressive elements among Sunni and Shiite populations have almost always been a minority.

There has almost always been some degree of separation between the two in the West and it has support in the gospels as well.

"And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way." Matthew 22:20-22

In Islam secularism generally has to be enforced by a military presence it doesn't really take well.

Existence of separation does not mean that church supports secularism. That claim that church supports secularism was one of the most ridiculous claims I've heard so far. The separation of church and state in history is usually due to fear of rulers to be dominated by the clergy. So, in certain times they had to wage war against them to weaken them or eliminate them.

Is secularism in Albania protected by the Albanian army? It doesn't has to be protected just because of Islam. It's the structure of Middle Eastern societies that require that.