When should Silk Road trade node / ancillaries appear?

[Roma_Victrix]

There are a number of possible dates, but I suppose nothing earlier than 125 BC. That would be the year Zhang Qian returned to the Han Dynasty court in China from his diplomatic foray into Central Asia in search for allies against the nomadic Xiongnu.

I would suggest something like 121 BC, when the Han commander Huo Qubing forced the Xiongnu out of the Hexi Corridor all the way to Lop Nur, thus capturing the long arm of territory connecting Central Asia with China Proper.

What are some possible Chinese ancillaries for this game? The diplomat Zhang Qian is a no-brainer. Perhaps even the Han generals Chen Tang and Gan Yanshou, who fought the Xiongnu at the Battle of Zhizhi in 36 BC near what is now Taraz, Kazakhstan. A simple silk merchant ancillary might suffice; I recall something like that from the mod Europa Barbarorum.

[Ichon]

Silk was known before that and some goods were traded but regular and large trade wasn't until after though it could either be starting small as resource and further developed with building upgrades or start with hay 1-2 resources and.around that date more appear.

[Roma_Victrix]

Silk was known before that and some goods were traded but regular and large trade wasn't until after though it could either be starting small as resource and further developed with building upgrades or start with hay 1-2 resources and.around that date more appear.

I recall reading a long time ago about some Shang or early Western Zhou Chinese silk found in a New Kingdom Era Egyptian tomb with a mummy. Aside from that small example with Egypt, there's really no tangible evidence for silk passing further west than Central Asia before 120 BC.

Silk didn't become an opulent fashion craze in the Greco-Roman world until the late 1st century BC, although the Parthians in Persia and Mesopotamia had collected plenty of the stuff from the Chinese decades before this.

[Ichon]

I recall reading a long time ago about some Shang or early Western Zhou Chinese silk found in a New Kingdom Era Egyptian tomb with a mummy. Aside from that small example with Egypt, there's really no tangible evidence for silk passing further west than Central Asia before 120 BC.

Silk didn't become an opulent fashion craze in the Greco-Roman world until the late 1st century BC, although the Parthians in Persia and Mesopotamia had collected plenty of the stuff from the Chinese decades before this.

That date is way off for serious trade in silk though Chinese made serious efforts at export around then and established and maintained state run parts of the route which allowed volume of trade to substantially increase. However there is evidence already by 130BCE that India was growing silk or at least weaving it from Chinese cloth that was unraveled and rewoven and dyed.

Also other indications that silk was known widely far earlier.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...n_Greece*.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_silk

[Roma_Victrix]

That date is way off for serious trade in silk though Chinese made serious efforts at export around then and established and maintained state run parts of the route which allowed volume of trade to substantially increase. However there is evidence already by 130BCE that India was growing silk or at least weaving it from Chinese cloth that was unraveled and rewoven and dyed.

Also other indications that silk was known widely far earlier.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...n_Greece*.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_silk

Huh! I never read about Indian silk that early. That's quite early indeed! Interesting.

Yes an increasing negative foreign trade balance would be appropriate, so your empire runs into serious financial trouble, over time. To react we would need some managemnet for customs duty. in reality the taxrate was 25% at the empires outer borders. And this was still not enough.

True. But trade went both ways. In Han Dynasty Chinese era tombs there have been plenty of Roman glasswares found that would have been a foreign luxury item to the Chinese.

[Diglytron]

I would like to have an more important trade route system. I thought I did read an very good stated OP and thread about this.

[Ngazi]

I prefer the silk road be a building that gives a ton of negative triggers.

[UsulDaNeriak]

I prefer the silk road be a building that gives a ton of negative triggers.

Yes an increasing negative foreign trade balance would be appropriate, so your empire runs into serious financial trouble, over time. To react we would need some managemnet for customs duty. in reality the taxrate was 25% at the empires outer borders. And this was still not enough.

[UsulDaNeriak]

True. But trade went both ways. In Han Dynasty Chinese era tombs there have been plenty of Roman glasswares found that would have been a foreign luxury item to the Chinese.

This is correct; same for India. Nevertheless, scholars understand, that the foreign trade balance was negative, at least against these two economic areas. And this means a lot of loss in gold over time, which was not the only, but one issue for the roman monetary economy.

And the monetary economy was not the only, but one reason for the Fall of Rome.

[Ichon]

This is correct; same for India. Nevertheless, scholars understand, that the foreign trade balance was negative, at least against these two economic areas. And this means a lot of loss in gold over time, which was not the only, but one issue for the roman monetary economy.

And the monetary economy was not the only, but one reason for the Fall of Rome.

http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs...del/020803.pdf

It is an interesting question of trade balance where in the early Roman Empire tribute and mining brought in such excessive amounts of metal- both silver and gold- that even sending large quantities off in trade did not diminish Roman economy. However as Rome continued its conquests east and China also pacified and then protected trade routes the quantity of trade increased substantially- eventually tribute amounts flowing to Rome declined and for awhile industrial scale mining made up for that loss but as mine works were exhausted and the silver and gold from Germany stopped flowing due to migrations late Rome began to experience repeated financial crises, changing climate or failure to properly maintain agricultural works in the more arid parts of the Empire also so famines appear, the political chaos of the late Empire simultaneously denied the stability to address these problems and eventually the western half which could no longer provide the revenues to maintain the state failed while the richer eastern half survived another 1,000 years.

[Roma_Victrix]

http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs...del/020803.pdf

It is an interesting question of trade balance where in the early Roman Empire tribute and mining brought in such excessive amounts of metal- both silver and gold- that even sending large quantities off in trade did not diminish Roman economy. However as Rome continued its conquests east and China also pacified and then protected trade routes the quantity of trade increased substantially- eventually tribute amounts flowing to Rome declined and for awhile industrial scale mining made up for that loss but as mine works were exhausted and the silver and gold from Germany stopped flowing due to migrations late Rome began to experience repeated financial crises, changing climate or failure to properly maintain agricultural works in the more arid parts of the Empire also so famines appear, the political chaos of the late Empire simultaneously denied the stability to address these problems and eventually the western half which could no longer provide the revenues to maintain the state failed while the richer eastern half survived another 1,000 years.

This provides me with an interesting idea for the game! As the Silk Road opens around the 120s BC, playable factions such as Rome should feel pressure to start building gold mines in settlements on the campaign map. As Silk Road trade increases, so too should the need for bigger and more extensive mining works. The Romans were, after all, some of the most prolific operators of mines in the premodern world. With hydraulic engineering to aid in mining operations, extraction was achieved on a truly industrial scale.

[HusKatten]

Diglytron: I hope you mean my sig

[Roma_Victrix]

Diglytron: I hope you mean my sig

He most certainly did. Excellent work in your thread, btw, HusKatten.

[Ngazi]

Wow amazing stuff. Could make for a great challenge trying to get the last few settlements to make 50 and for Barbarian Invasion.

[daelin4]

An interesting idea is to have only one or two such nodes, then as time passes, more can spawn, allowing prospective factions a go at attaining more wealth or getting a piece of the action if they couldn't get their hands on one. Certain player or game actions can also have a factor in the spawning of new nodes. To maximize unpredictability, nodes can spawn in an settlements or outposts on the edge of the map.

[Argon Viper]

Yeah, there's a really good thread about all things economy and trade that HusKatten started. I like the ideas that have been floating around there. In its simplest form, I'd say you could represent the silk road with trade nodes similar to what we had in Shogun 2 to trade with the outside world. It did feel a bit limiting since Japan actually did invade Korea and fight major battles with China in the scope of the game time and that was simply not an option, but it worked as a proxy for foreign trade. It would definitely be interesting to add bonuses or penalties (or both) to factions that took part in that trade though. I would also like to see a system that didn't just allow one player access to a node, but have a nodal area where all players with ships or caravans in the area take part in the trade.

[Roma_Victrix]

It did feel a bit limiting since Japan actually did invade Korea and fight major battles with China in the scope of the game time and that was simply not an option, but it worked as a proxy for foreign trade.

No, you are thinking of Tang China, the Three Kingdoms of Korea (with Silla eventually victorious), and Yamato-period Japanese of the 7th century. That is several centuries ahead of the time scope of Rome II.

When Rome was still a Republic, China unified into a massive empire under the Qin and subsequent Han, but the lands we know as Korea and Japan today still had rather undeveloped Bronze Age civilizations. In fact iron production was introduced to Korea via Han-era Chinese settlers from the 2nd century BC onwards. There weren't any recorded diplomatic contacts between the Chinese imperial court and rulers of Japan until the 1st century AD.

[Kinjo]

I don't think a node is very fitting for land based trade, maybe the silk road can just simply just be a route the caravans from the East take to trade their goods. Maybe there could be some stipulations on how the route is determined based on the prosperity of cities that run along the historical path of the silk road. If one of those cities are sacked or having extreme economic issues the silk road might re-route to more prosperous cities. I really hope the whole trade node system is a feature of the past that is replaced with a dynamic system that reacts to the economic situation. They could even be like the merchants guilds in M2TW, if you have a city that is booming and doing lots of trading as well as being close to silk road's historical path caravans could offer to set up an outpost in your settlement.