Why does organized religion still exist?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I think it is more or less common knowledge that organized religion is an offspring of people trying to get wealth and power through the exploitation of others' ignorance - the same pattern emerges throughout history. Now we have other ways of explaining the world than what the local religious authority tells us, namely, science. So why do we allow organized religion to exist? Well, perhaps we might not be able to root it out just like that, but I am positive the time for states giving religious organizations privileges for the virtue of being religions is long gone.

Yes, you might still delude yourself and fund such things, but this is nothing that the state should support or endorse.

[Enzo]

Now we have other ways of explaining the world than what the local religious authority tells us, namely, science.

Science doesn't explain the thing that religion (the Abrahamic ones at least) used to explain. Instead what you have is a partnership between the two. God provides the basis for a scientifically understandable world it isn't random chaos.

[Aodh Mor]

after the first sentence i was expecting a serious discussion of faith vs religion and the moral problems with organised religion, instead he decided to go down the 'religion is obsolete because we have science to solve all of life's problems'...

[America125]

Religion is for old ppl that have no life

[Enzo]

Jesus himself didn't have a high opinion of organised religion not something that very often gets brought up. He didn't particularly like overtly religious people either he hung around with the riff raff and dregs of society.

[Sir Adrian]

Yeah that's why catholic and orthodox priests and the more religious elements of society are always among the biggest dissidents in any dictatorial regime. Sheep he says.

To all atheists here: please stop identifying religion with Evangelical Christianity, they are not the same thing.

He didn't particularly like overtly religious people either he hung around with the riff raff and dregs of society.

Jesus said: "I did not come to heal the healthy, but to heal the sick"
He hung around with the riff raff because those people needed salvation more than the priests and pharisees.

You would have made a better argument if you would have pointed out that He always asked his followers to have faith rather than religion.

[Enzo]

Jesus said: "I did not come to heal the healthy, but to heal the sick"
He hung around with the riff raff because those people needed salvation more than the priests and pharisees.

True but also he seemed to have a dislike of the pharisees and anyone who saw themselves to be righteous.

You could have pointed out that He always asked his followers to have faith and not religion.

You could say Christianity as an actual state religion was an invention of the Roman Empire, the business of Jesus founding the Catholic Church was probably a fabrication. It was just a heretical sect of Judaism to begin with and when St Paul spread the faith to the Gentiles it was an underground movement.

[Caesar Germanico]

Yeah that's why catholic and orthodox priests and the more religious elements of society are always among the biggest dissidents in any dictatorial regime. Sheep he says.

Clearly you have no notion how much the Catholic Church worked with/gave support to pratically all the fascist regimes in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

[Diocle]

BOM, I totally agree with you, but sadly I think that if the States still spend such enormous quantity of money to finance the religions, probably religions are still useful for them: States need sheeps, not citizen, and religions (+TV) are perfect sheeps-makers!

[Kissaki]

I think it's a bit early to ask "why is organized religion still around" yet, as people are still quite religious in much of the US, South America and Eastern and Southern Europe. But I do believe we are in a transitional phase, as Western society is becoming more and more secular. Religion is in decline, and I think in just a few decades' time we will see churches fulfilling more of a secular role than a religious one. Already I have attended funerals, nominally Christian funerals, where the priest seemed to go out of his way to avoid religious reference. At least in my corner of the world, religion is in steep decline.

[Enzo]

I think it's a bit early to ask "why is organized religion still around" yet, as people are still quite religious in much of the US, South America and Eastern and Southern Europe. But I do believe we are in a transitional phase, as Western society is becoming more and more secular. Religion is in decline, and I think in just a few decades' time we will see churches fulfilling more of a secular role than a religious one. Already I have attended funerals, nominally Christian funerals, where the priest seemed to go out of his way to avoid religious reference. At least in my corner of the world, religion is in steep decline.

You'll notice that adherance to the teachings of the New Testament and Christ have been on the increase in the West over the last few hundred years. The abolishment of slavery, equal rights for minorities, homosexuals, women and more democratic and individual freedoms. This is still very much a Christian civilisation as much now as it ever was if not more so. We're not becoming what Friedrich Nietzsche had in mind when belief in God supposedly dies out. People who actually call themselves atheists only represent a tiny minority of the human race of course, well perhaps on a par with the number of religious Jews.

[Kissaki]

You'll notice that adherance to the teachings of the New Testament and Christ have been on the increase in the West over the last few hundred years. The abolishment of slavery, equal rights for minorities, homosexuals, women and more democratic and individual freedoms.

None of which have anything to do with the New Testament. These are secular values -- you won't find anything in the New Testament about emancipation, women's suffrage, gay rights or individual freedoms. Quite the opposite, in fact: you are told to be true to your master, homosexuality is still a "vile vice", wives are told to be submissive to their husbands, and Jesus is also very strict about divorce (and look at the divorce rates in the same time frame you are referring to).

This is still very much a Christian civilisation as much now as it ever was if not more so. We're not becoming what Friedrich Nietzsche had in mind when belief in God supposedly dies out. People who actually call themselves atheists only represent a tiny minority of the human race of course, well perhaps on a par with the number of religious Jews.

Most people don't offer much thought to it. Those who actually believe in the Biblical stories are far fewer in number, certainly in Norway, than people who identify themselves as atheists. Most are either agnostic, or believe that "there must be something more than this", but do not know what. They still get married in church, and baptise their children, but this is a matter of tradition -- not belief. In my own family there are people who did so, but view the notion of God and church as utterly ridiculous. Still, church wedding, and child baptism.

[Enzo]

None of which have anything to do with the New Testament.

It has everything to do with the New Testament. What you have there is the premise that all of mankind is of equal worth and value to their Creator God. You also find reference to the separation of Church and government in the New Testament with the "render unto Caesar what is Caesars" business so that is the foundation of our secular society. Even our science is grounded on the premise that God created immutable laws that can be studied and rationally understand and utilised. There was a European Dark Age but you can't really pin that on Christianity that was due to the collapse of Rome and barbarian invasions.

These are secular values

Secular values are Christian values. They're not Islamic values, they're not Hindu values or anything else our world is throughly rooted in Christianity and the teachings of Christ even if you don't believe in it.

you won't find anything in the New Testament about emancipation, women's suffrage, gay rights or individual freedoms.

Everything you mention here was derived from the Christian premise of human equality and it was Christian groups who pushed for all of this.

Quite the opposite, in fact: you are told to be true to your master, homosexuality is still a "vile vice",wives are told to be submissive to their husbands

Jesus didn't say anything specifically about this but he implied human equality for everyone not a system where some people are inherently better or have unearned privelges over others. In the Quran the superiority of Muslims and men is clearly laid out and in Hinduism they have a caste system and so on. So Western secular values still have their roots in Christianity. Even Western atheists are still cultural Christians.

, and Jesus is also very strict about divorce (and look at the divorce rates in the same time frame you are referring to).

And divorce and the breakup of families is harmful to society he wasn't wrong about that.

, Most people don't offer much thought to it. Those who actually believe in the Biblical stories are far fewer in number, certainly in Norway, than people who identify themselves as atheists. Most are either agnostic, or believe that "there must be something more than this", but do not know what. They still get married in church, and baptise their children, but this is a matter of tradition -- not belief. In my own family there are people who did so, but view the notion of God and church as utterly ridiculous. Still, church wedding, and child baptism.

If they accept the Western way of life and Western values and morality then they still Christians of a sort imo. Perhaps they're better Christians now than they were in the middle ages when they were burning witches. I think it would help if they understood better what they were and embraced the actual faith itself but it's an optional extra.

[Manco]

Everything you mention here was derived from the Christian premise of human equality and it was Christian groups who pushed for all of this.

Funny then how for the first 1500 years of existence it didn't promote any of those values, except maybe in the very beginning when it suited its aims to build a powerbase out of the weak and disenfranchised. What were they waiting for?

But hey, it's probably just non-causal correlation humanism came to be at pretty much the exact time all these values were beginning to spread.

[Kissaki]

It has everything to do with the New Testament. What you have there is the premise that all of mankind is of equal worth and value to their Creator God. You also find reference to the separation of Church and government in the New Testament with the "render unto Caesar what is Caesars" business so that is the foundation of our secular society.

Except the fact that separation of church and state has only ever been achieved by secular push, not religious. In Norway we had the interesting case of advocates from both sides -- the secularists because they didn't want to be forced into something they didn't believe in (until the recent separation you were automatically enrolled into the church registers upon birth, and you had to actively apply to be stricken off the list), and the religious because they didn't want the state dictating church policies (in Norway, state church meant the state dictated church policy, not the other way around). But none of the arguments were rooted in the New Testament. And indeed, for most of its existence, there has been no separation of church and state. What happened, nobody read the New Testament until modern times?

Even our science is grounded on the premise that God created immutable laws that can be studied and rationally understand and utilised.

NO. Science is based on the scientific method, and does not even mention God. After all, if something exists outside the testable, if something can't be explained naturalistically, then science isn't interested in it.

There was a European Dark Age but you can't really pin that on Christianity that was due to the collapse of Rome and barbarian invasions.

The "dark ages" is something of a misnomer. Originally it was a phrase that was coined because of how one perceived those ages, but scholars soon found out it was more accurate to use it on account of how little we knew of those times. These days, however, scholars prefer to avoid the phrase altogether, because there seems to be no real justification in calling those times any "darker" than any other.

Secular values are Christian values. They're not Islamic values, they're not Hindu values or anything else our world is throughly rooted in Christianity and the teachings of Christ even if you don't believe in it.

You are putting the cart before the horse. Secular values are secular values. Christian values are secular values (thank goodness). You see, Christians don't let their Christianity colour their values, they let their values colour their Christianity. This is how it is, and this is how it has always been. This is why so-called "Christian values" have changed with the times, and also with geography. If YOU were right, Christian values would have been the same 500 years ago as they are now, and all over the world there would be a consensus as to what "Christian values" are. But fortunately, people don't actually get their values from the Bible. Whether they believe in it or not.

Everything you mention here was derived from the Christian premise of human equality and it was Christian groups who pushed for all of this.

No, not in the slightest. We have had Christianity for almost 2000 years, yet "equality" has been conspicuously absent most of that time. And according to Jesus, men and women are not equal. And indeed, quite contrary to what you say, it was Christian groups who OPPOSED the push for equality between sexes and races, and OPPOSED equality between sexual persuasion (and still do oppose). So progress with these issues have happened in spite of Christianity, not because of it. Oh sure, there were Christian groups who advocated against slavery tool, but slave holders used the Bible to justify the holding of slaves as well. So "Christian values" vs. "Christian values", then. In the case of women's rights and gay rights, those were secular issues entirely. NONE of the arguments used to get those issues through were religious, neither overtly nor covertly. Those in favour of equality who also happen to be religious, use secular arguments and only crowbar the Bible to fit their views when in debate with traditionalists who use a more logical interpretation of the Bible.

Jesus didn't say anything specifically about this but he implied human equality for everyone not a system where some people are inherently better or have unearned privelges over others.

Paul was quite explicit about those things, though. And it's not in favour of equality. The best you can get from the New Testament in this regard is "hate the sin but love the sinner".

In the Quran the superiority of Muslims and men is clearly laid out and in Hinduism they have a caste system and so on.

As it is in the Bible. NT included.

So Western secular values still have their roots in Christianity. Even Western atheists are still cultural Christians.

Yes, Christianity has coloured our culture. But Christianity has likewise been coloured by local customs and values. Our values come from the society (and its subsections) we were brought up in. The Bible hasn't changed, but "Christian values" have -- constantly. Doesn't this tell you something?

And divorce and the breakup of families is harmful to society he wasn't wrong about that.

Sometimes it's the marriage which is harmful, and a divorce the best solution for all concerned. It is funny that Jesus sees adultery as a reasonable cause for divorce, though -- but if the relationship is abusive, they should apparently just suck it up.

If they accept the Western way of life and Western values and morality then they still Christians of a sort imo. Perhaps they're better Christians now than they were in the middle ages when they were burning witches. I think it would help if they understood better what they were and embraced the actual faith itself but it's an optional extra.

Again, you are putting the cart before the horse. A very big thing happened in the 17th century, and that's when people consciously started to look outside the Bible for wisdom and moral guidance. This was an intellectual revolution which has later been known as the Age of Reason, and although it produced some cooky results along the way (mesmerism, phrenology etc.) it is a trend which has continued up unto this day. That's when it became ok to replace Christian ideas with non-Christian ones. It went overboard in France during the Terror, but the net result was positive, I think.

Anyway, if you really think Christianity is to thank for Western values today, then you have to explain why our values weren't the Christian values of yesteryear. If you can't do that, you have no reason to link it to Christianity. As if people are incapable of coming up with notions of equality on their own.

[Lazarus]

Organized religion is still a thing because the silliness of someones hat is directly proportional to how often God speaks to them (if I understand correctly)

[fkizz]

Short Answer: Because the world isn't made of edgy teens in their anti-religion rebellious phase. People eventually grow out of that phase.

What does do I mean with this? Basically as maturity kicks in, people realise in their edgy phase they used organized religion as a scapegoat for the worlds problems - like Nero blamed christians for the big fire in Rome, rebellious angry teens blame Christians for the world's problems.

[Lazarus]

Short Answer: Because the world isn't made of edgy teens in their anti-religion rebellious phase. People eventually grow out of that phase.

"God is right and anyone who disagrees must be an angry child"

No. Some of us just have a higher standard of proof then what allows you to operate as a theist.

[fkizz]

"God is right and anyone who disagrees must be an angry child"

No. Some of us just have a higher standard of proof then what allows you to operate as a theist.

No, you even have double standarts on proof. You don't have a higher standart of proof, you have a double standart of proof.

By asking Theism to give proof right into your feet, and by asking Atheism to give exactly 0 proof, because the truth claim of atheism according to you requires no proof.

So the way you deal with proof is intellectually imature, and you give special benefits to atheism. Fallacy of special pleading.

I've been in that rebellious atheist phase, seen many teenagers in it aswell, someday you will grow out of it too, a matter of time.

Don't fool yourself, you have no higher standart of proof, what you have is double standart of proof.

I like how no theist even tries to address the issue of religion being used as a means of controling peasants throughout history. Sure, keep your imaginary friend. But this leftover of the dark ages should not form a basis for governments, or be endorsed and/or supported by a government.

Atheist/Secular societies also use mass media and all means avaliable to at all costs control the masses. Control of the masses happens both with religion and without religion. Saying control of the masses only happens in theocracies is literally paying no atention to your surroundings, even in secular/atheist democracy it happens aswell.

Conclusion? Control of the masses is not a religious characteristic, it's a society characteristic.

P.S. Trying to dismiss my opinion as "teenage rebellion against religion" is an unfounded accusation - I don't come from a religious family, and my own country is largely secular. Religious people are actually a minority in Latvia. Also, it's a condescening personal attack, which won't win you any discussions. Not that you can win discussions anyway, since from what I've noticed, most theists use the time tested method of yelling louder than the opposition when debating.

No need to get so mad. Not all atheists are teenagers rebelling against religion - but it's a recurrent ocurrence. Found many. Of course I can't make a 100% effective generalization, but being a rebellious anti-religion teenager is indeed the cause of many for atheism, even if it doesn't apply in your (and some other people's) case.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Short Answer: Because the world isn't made of edgy teens in their anti-religion rebellious phase. People eventually grow out of that phase.

What does do I mean with this? Basically as maturity kicks in, people realise in their edgy phase they used organized religion as a scapegoat for the worlds problems - like Nero blamed christians for the big fire in Rome, rebellious angry teens blame Christians for the world's problems.

Yes, history has shown that's always been a thing.