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  1. #1
    Tostig's Avatar -
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    Default Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Citizens, Plebians, Staff members! Lend me your ears! Let me tell my fellow man a tale, a tale of a system gone wrong. Be warned that this may not be in the excruciatingly boring legal style you may be accustomed to, but I feel this will grab your attention more, given that it is like that most marmitious of philosophers. Let any followers question my words, as they did those of Zarathustra, and sort out the details later.

    “Back in the glorious past of these forums there was quite a simple system. It consisted of three main parts – a feudal system of sorts. On the bottom rung there were the plebians, the common users, the people who came to discuss Rome Total War and its modifications.
    The second class were the Civitates – the citizens of the forum. They had a sub-forum of their own, the Curia, in which they got up to intrigues and backstabbing and make laws. They had no power however, but they were content in their illusion of power amongst their own kind.
    The third class, the Staff, consisted of the moderators and the administrators and at the top of it all there was the sovereign, the person with absolute power, the Emperor. They were content to have the Civitates have their fun, with their silly little ranks such as patrician and such like, while they got on with the serious business of running the forum.



    There were two changes with this idyllic system however, the first of these harmless. In order to become a Civitate one have had to be patronised by, surprisingly enough, a patron, and be accepted by the staff. This became such a huge amount of work that the staff said to the citizens beneath them – “Form a council of your own, and with that council you shall have choice over who may or may not enter into your ranks.” And the citizens rejoiced, for this was a meagre scrap of power, and could play much fun in their tangled web of intrigues.

    But then a second problem came. It arrived into the heads of some people that the quality of the forums, and more specifically the curia, had gone down since it had been a small elitist institution in years gone by. Indubitably this was true – it was no longer allowed, for instance, to ban someone simply for being an idiot. However in their mood of zealous fury they voted through a law allowing the council of citizens, the CdeC as it has been known, the power to judge their own kind. “It is fair” they said “It will be quicker” they said “It will be good!” they said.


    However it was not as they had cried. In the first major case of this most illustrious of inventions, involving many staff matters, the CdeC decided how it would run itself – that it would be private in its judging (which many of those who had voted had assumed it would not be) and would be able to read staff matters. When the case came to a close the defendant, not unjustly, accused the council of doing all kinds of wrongs. And others were upset with it because it had more power than it had originally meant to have, and had upset the balance of the forums. It divided the Civitates, making a class with the best of both worlds – all of the power and secrets of the staff, with none of the responsibilities, while at the same time being able to influence the class of the civitates, but without having to worry about being changed legally.

    And then a young counter-revolutionary, a reactionary if you will, came before the people of the Curia, being foolish enough to open his mouth fully, and said “If we were worried about the quality of our people then this council has done nothing to change that – look at what piteously little they have done! And look at how long they take, it is no quicker! And look again at how unfair it is to us – this council has made its own rules with no reference to us, we people in whose name it was made!” And the people looked towards him, and they cried out “What would you have us do about it, young imbecile?” And he stared at his feet, and meekly said “Why do we not, if we are so worried still about the quality of our people, have a proper purge by the staff, and decide who is and isn’t worthy once and for all. If we have a purge, then we can assume the citizens will act rightly, and if we do not then the citizens must already be good people, and must act rightly already. Either way we have no need of a council of superiors amongst equals to make our choices for us. We must either be purged by those that admitted us - or those that admitted those that admitted us, or accept that we will suffice.”

    And the people were left thinking. Was it better to allow this travesty to continue, or to revert things to how they were, how they were meant to be?

    And one of them said “But how would that case have been dealt with, if the council was not there to assume the position of both staff and civitates?” and the lad eagerly replied “The curia would have tried him as they have always done, on his worthy as a member of the curia, and the staff would have tried him as they have always done, on his worth as a member of the staff, and all would have been happy – except perhaps he who had been tried

    And the people thought again, how although they did not like this secret justice from equals above, they did not also like the idea of actual action, as used to whining and backstabbing as they were.”

    That is my tale, judge it as you will.
    Garbarsardar has been a dapper chap.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    I disagree with your suggestion on the removal of power from the CdeC, it rightfully performs the menial tasks that the staff need not spend their time taking part in and forms an unbiast commity capable of dealing with both staff and Citivate matters when they come to pass.

    However, long back I also suggested a purge, I was laughed off, the staff would not stand the backlash against such a move and the Citivates would claim it abuse of power and rebel. The problem with these arguments it that a) The staff have used and will use such power over members and Citivates, increacing the scale, if neccissary (which I believe it is) is hardly a huge change
    b)The only Citivates complaining will be those demoted, who will be ignored as if they were chosen to be demoted they are not worty of the priviledge of whining to the staff in the Curia, this is how it should be!

    Up with the CdeC
    Up with the purge!

  3. #3
    Tostig's Avatar -
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    An unbiased comittee? How? It is made of fallible creatures, and their bias is merely the bias of the Curia, heightenned by the reduced numbers.

    I agree that they perform a menial function - but I say that it ought to stop at considering applicants instead of the staff. Why on earth should the CdeC preside over trials rather than the Curia itself? It has proven itself to be no quicker, and it keeps what ought to be public knowledge (with the exception of knowledge about staff matters, which should never have been disclosed to non-staff in the first place) away from us, the public. Are we really willing to sign away our rights and liberties to a Leviathan of Hobbesian proportions who does not even afford us the protection that Hobbes' monarch does? I for one do not - we already have one state that is presided over by the Emperor. One sovereign for the forums, but not another Leviathan for the Curia on its own.

    The staff should be dealt with by the staff, as staff. They are a seperate race, as made quite clear by Archer when he divorced his position from the Curia's constitution. Staff ought not to be tried by us inferior civiates, because civiates ought not to know what they must know to try staff. As the lad in my tale said, "The curia would have tried him as they have always done, on his worth as a member of the curia, and the staff would have tried him as they have always done, on his worth as a member of the staff"

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky
    Maybe the requirement for a purge... isn't there
    Then perhaps the need for increasing the juristiction of the CdeC to judge, jury and executioner wasn't there either? As the boy said "and if we do not then the citizens must already be good people, and must act rightly already. Either way we have no need of a council of superiors amongst equals to make our choices for us."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerwen
    When will these constant calls for purges end? ...
    And how would you feel if you were one of the ones purged from the Curia?
    Very well, if we all agree that there is no need for a purge then there is no need to have a seperate body to try our members - strip the powers from the CdeC. If I were purged? Well then, I would feel a trifle annoyed that I had been admitted to the Curia in the firstplace, but appart from that I would stoicly post as I have always done, since I am not all that petty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archer
    are you suggesting an inquisition?
    If the reasons for giving the CdeC the powers it has were true, then we need a Spanish Inquisition to sort out that problem.

    Am I actually suggesting a purge? No. If you had bothered to listen to me at the time I was arguing that if there had been a change in quality then the CdeC would do nothing about it (exactly what has happened, if I might add with some smugness), but those that think we do not need a purge must surely accept that we then have no need of a CdeC to try us, as the Curia can try itself both more effectively, more openly and more quickly, not to mention less devicively. I am however amused at how I managed to grab your attention...
    Garbarsardar has been a dapper chap.

  4. #4
    Aemilianus's Avatar Imperial Legate
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tostig
    The staff should be dealt with by the staff, as staff. They are a seperate race, as made quite clear by Archer when he divorced his position from the Curia's constitution. Staff ought not to be tried by us inferior civiates, because civiates ought not to know what they must know to try staff. As the lad in my tale said, "The curia would have tried him as they have always done, on his worth as a member of the curia, and the staff would have tried him as they have always done, on his worth as a member of the staff"
    This position you make in that statement is utterly perfect, and I agree with it completely.

    Fix that problem, and I think the issue is mostly solved.
    Under the honorable patronage of Kscott
    University of Maryland Class of 2007
    "Who would have known of Hector, if Troy had been happy? The road to valor is built by adversity." -Ovid




  5. #5

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    I love and hate the proposal, I love the way Tosig Presented it. I will say no more.

    For now.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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  6. #6
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Might I remind you one of the flaws of a purge? Who does the purging? Only someone totally and absolutely neutral. Now go find me someone on this site like that, please. Furthermore those calling for a purge never think that it might be a symptom of a problem and no more, do they? Maybe the requirement for a purge... isn't there?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    When will these constant calls for purges end? This is what, the fourth within a span of six months? I'm pretty sure these things always get shot down anyway, so why waste your time? I've made my feelings on "purging" clear before. I do not like nor support it, and I have lost a good deal of my respect for Tostig for suggesting such an elitist move

    -Signed in disgust, Nerwen Carnesξr.
    The proud progeny of Lord Sephiroth.
    Also a proud member of the Royal House of the Black Prince.
    "What would you humans know of loss? The Eldar have been singing songs of lament before your race even crawled out of the ocean on your bellies."

  8. #8
    Aemilianus's Avatar Imperial Legate
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Tostig, you're absolutely right with regard to what the CdC has done, and how the Curia likely intended the system to be. However, a purge is not the answer- a clarification and a bit of reform is. The CdC, as I've said many times before, needs to restrict itself to what it was designed for- approving Civitates and dealing with matters contravening the Syntagma, which should be its defining document. You are correct in my mind when you say the CdC saw nondisclosable information that it should not have, and such a situation should at least in part have been dealt with by staff discipline alone, since it falls under that category. I've been putting some posts into Gaius Baltar's thread (which we both support) talking about the necessity for disclosure for this very reason. In sum, I agree totally with your description of the problem, but I think the solution is a lot easier to obtain and probably would have the support of most of the Curia (as it is most of the Curia who voted for the original plan with disclosure in mind).
    Under the honorable patronage of Kscott
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    "Who would have known of Hector, if Troy had been happy? The road to valor is built by adversity." -Ovid




  9. #9

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    are you suggesting an inquisition?




    very medievalish...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    I didn't understand a word of the latter half of that tGS, could you make it clearer please? Purging done by staff of course, hexagon to be exact, as they rule everything anyway there is no reason why not. And the entire point it biast is taken into acount, those who repeatedly annoy hex shouldn't realy be in the Cuia should they?
    -------
    For some reason I cant find the edit button, sould a staff member merge this?
    @Nerwen, I suggested a purge a while back, I still rest firmly behind the belief it is needed, TWC is elitist, otherwise there would not be a Citivate, Patrician and Opifex ranks, which mearly add to personal glorification (besides access to Curia and Symposium)
    @Archer, not an innquisition, a debate amongst staff (and perhaps the CdeC) about who TRULY deserves the Citivate rank

    Double post merged. Please use the edit button. Thank you - imb39

  11. #11
    Aemilianus's Avatar Imperial Legate
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Quote Originally Posted by silver guard
    I didn't understand a word of the latter half of that tGS, could you make it clearer please? Purging done by staff of course, hexagon to be exact, as they rule everything anyway there is no reason why not. And the entire point it biast is taken into acount, those who repeatedly annoy hex shouldn't realy be in the Cuia should they?
    Whoa, whoa, wait. Purging the Curia, by Staff is something that could, I guess, be done, but I don't think you want that. The attempt by Tostig has a flawed solution, but what most of us have been trying to carve out is a niche and a power for Curial representatives, not a total surrender of both. If people repeatedly annoy Hex, then Hex will deal with them under ToS law long before the Curia runs proceedings. A purge is bad enough, a purge by Hex is something I'd be totally against; it destroys all the power of the Curia in such matters.
    Under the honorable patronage of Kscott
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    @Nerwen, I would likely fall into depression and leave the forum for a prolonged period of time (much like my absence Feb-Mar) but would do so because of the realisation I am not good enough for the rank, not due to a feeling on unfairness. After that short period I would return to posting as I always have done.
    @Ae (cant spell name and in a hurry to reply) The curia has no power over staff, it never has and never wil do, there is no point in supporting an illusion in the contrary
    @tostig: They are as close as we have to an unbiast body, as Curia will support Curia above all things, the staff will do the same for staff. (And I myself am suggesting a purge)

  13. #13

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    I dont see how the CdeC is the problem, when the same people who hold sway over the site since its inception now still hold sway over the CdeC, and all of us. TWC is an oligarchy imo, curial politics have always been reminescent of an oligarchy to me. So to complain about the CdeC seems like you missed the mark a bit to me, you have a problem with the CdeC holding sway over the civitates, but you DONT see a problem with the same ol' influential staff members holding sway over everyone else, including the CdeC?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Quote Originally Posted by silver guard
    @Nerwen, I would likely fall into depression and leave the forum for a prolonged period of time (much like my absence Feb-Mar) but would do so because of the realisation I am not good enough for the rank, not due to a feeling on unfairness. After that short period I would return to posting as I always have done.
    Meh, what ever. It's not a personal issue anyway, rather something that if instated, will effect tens of individuals. I have an idea, why not abandon this whole system we have? Why not delete all "special" ranks aside from staff, and run TWC like a traditional Internet forum. That way, you get your grandiose purge, and the staff can reign with absolute power, as some of you seem to want.
    The proud progeny of Lord Sephiroth.
    Also a proud member of the Royal House of the Black Prince.
    "What would you humans know of loss? The Eldar have been singing songs of lament before your race even crawled out of the ocean on your bellies."

  15. #15
    Tacticalwithdrawal's Avatar Ghost
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    just a few thoughts -

    if there ever was a purge (and I would personally oppose one) then I would be absolutely and admantlty against it being carried out by staff. Why the hell should staff get involved in deciding who is good enough to be a civitate and who isn't? That is Curia business, not staff business. Yes staff are part of the CdeC but staff views are balanced by non-staff views.

    Quote Originally Posted by tostig
    The staff should be dealt with by the staff, as staff. They are a seperate race, as made quite clear by Archer when he divorced his position from the Curia's constitution. Staff ought not to be tried by us inferior civiates, because civiates ought not to know what they must know to try staff. As the lad in my tale said, "The curia would have tried him as they have always done, on his worth as a member of the curia, and the staff would have tried him as they have always done, on his worth as a member of the staff"
    which (if we're talking about tBP) is what happened, so can't see what the problem is really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tostig
    the CdeC decided how it would run itself – that it would be private in its judging (which many of those who had voted had assumed it would not be)
    when I drafted the new disciplinary process I assumed as well it would all be held in open court. However, good arguments were made for trials being held in closed court (mainly to do with protecting the accused) and that's the way the vote went.

    My suggestion would be to sort out how you want the CdeC to work (which I believe imb has made a proposal for). Lets give up these boring calls for purges and 'increasing the quality of civitates' and work to make what we have better.
    Last edited by Tacticalwithdrawal; July 30, 2006 at 04:34 PM.
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  16. #16
    Aemilianus's Avatar Imperial Legate
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Silver Guard- I never supported the idea that the Curia did have any power over staff, which is why I advocate the separation of powers. Tostig, in storybook/epic/medievalish fashion, is trying to make this an oppression battle, and though he presented it in a way worthy of publishing, this is not a medieval government or really for that matter any government. If the CdC is run by staff, it's useless to us for that very reason. Staff already deal with ToS violations among themselves and hold the ultimate power on this site, but Curial violations should be dealt with by the Curia. Civitateship violations contravening the Syntagma are Curial problems, the rest of it is staff. I know they can eliminate the system whenever they want, but we have the system, it is being abided by (even by Archer, who noted that he would try to hold to it unless something forced him not to), and I think we need to use it to enact a little bit of clarification. Once that is done, there really shouldn't be an issue.
    Under the honorable patronage of Kscott
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  17. #17
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    So, am I for the gullotine?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    I don't support any form of "purging".

  19. #19

    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    although I have thought of selected individuals (mild-inquisiteurs) to be able to issue user notes to civitates. just for the record. after a certain number of user notes (which has to be approved by staff), the person can be put on the trial.

    I see also the suggetion of purging of the old inactive accounts. I'm against that one, since we had even Paul (the creator of TWC) come back a few months ago, after being absent for like 3 years.

  20. #20
    Tostig's Avatar -
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    Default Re: Unspeakable suggestions – Curial Purge and CdeC reversal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacticalwithdrawal
    Lets give up these boring calls for purges and 'increasing the quality of civitates' and work to make what we have better.
    Quote Originally Posted by imb
    So, am I for the gullotine?
    Quote Originally Posted by H&G
    I don't support any form of "purging".
    One day Staff members will bother to read what I have written before replying to my posts. And on that day the sky will fall on our heads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tostig, post 11.
    Am I actually suggesting a purge? No. If you had bothered to listen to me at the time I was arguing that if there had been a change in quality then the CdeC would do nothing about it (exactly what has happened, if I might add with some smugness), but those that think we do not need a purge must surely accept that we then have no need of a CdeC to try us, as the Curia can try itself both more effectively, more openly and more quickly, not to mention less devicively. I am however amused at how I managed to grab your attention...
    If, as you seem to believe, there is no need to worry about the decline in civitate quality, and so no need for a purge, then the CdeC was given powers and privilidges it does not need, and has subsequently abused. I am saying that we should strip it of those powers. If what Tac says is true - that the CdeC only acts as a court for civitates, then I see no reason why we cannot go back to the old ways of having the entire court, rather than an empowered minority, judge these things.
    Last edited by Tostig; July 30, 2006 at 04:50 PM.
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