What if...? Discussion

[Eönwë]

Hi there,

As stated in the title this thread is for the discussion of What If? Tolkien situations.

For example (Also the first discussion I like to start):
What if Faramir went to Rivendell to join the Fellowship instead of Boromir?
I think Boromir was the better choice to lead the defence of Gondor, which would give Gondor more time to prepare for war and sent word for help.
Faramir on the other hand would do great with the Fellowship although I think he would still die at Amon Hen, defending Merry and Pippin, because his skill isn't better than Boromir's.
The rangers of Ithilien on the other hand lost a great leader, maybe never captured Frodo, Sam and Gollem and the ring was destroyed earlier. Or you could say more armies from the Haradrim came through and Osgilliath fell sooner and Minas Tirith was taking before the Rohirrim even arrived.

I also added a poll in which you can vote and discuss many What if? duels.

Feel free to post and discuss any What if? situations you find interesting or comment on a battle in the poll!

I started this thread because I like thinking about these situations and would like to hear all your ideas, opinions and arguments.

If you don't know some of the names in the poll, look them up!
Links:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

But I suggest you read the books..

If you voted please post who you think wins! And maybe explain why you think so?

PS: I hope this thread doesn't scare of most lore-experts as I'm eager to know their opinions.

EDIT: As I can vote my own poll, I voted for Fingolfin vs. Sauron (with the Ring offcourse although he still wouldn't stand a chance I believe)

[DrDragun]

Hmmm, I'm not so certain that Faramir would have died at Amon Hen. He has shown his heart capable of resisting the ring at least in the short term. Perhaps he would not be in the same predicament as Boromir at Amon Hen and would instead remain in the encampment with the rest of the Fellowship allowing for a more orderly departure of Frodo and Sam, and a more united defense against the Uruks rather than fighting them in disarray.

Then again, maybe Faramir did not really have a better resistance to the ring than Boromir. Perhaps it was because Boromir was exposed to the pull of the ring for a much longer time period during his journey with the Fellowship.

If Faramir was part of the fellowship and he DID survive, then the battles of Osgiliath and Pelennor Fields would be fought with both Boromir and Faramir together, united under a less crazed Denethor. However, the Ghost Army of Aragorn really cancels out any changes to events prior to their arrival. Probably the forces of Rohan and Minas Tirith would still be overwhelmed even with an orderly Gondor leadership. Minor improvements in Gondor position probably would not make a huge difference in the battle. The Ghost Army really just resets any changes in history before their arrival, because they are an unstoppable force deux ex machina.

EDIT:

For your battles, I choose Galadriel/Saruman or Glorfindel/Witch King

[Zimmy]

I would like to see a Glorifindel vs. Witch-King. It was said that the Witch-King fled before Glorifindel during the battle at Angmar, during the Ruin of Arnor, right?

If Faramir had been with the fellowship there are three options: A. He dies at Amon Hen. B. He flees with Sam and Frodo(Not likely) or C. Goes with the Three Hunters(now Four Hunters, hah)

If he had went with Frodo and Sam, he would have been able to navigate Ithilien, but that begs the question, how would they get past Cirith Ungol without the trap by Gollum?

[Salah-ad-deen]

Interesting point, but a less crazed Denethor may have given Aragorn a tougher time in reclaiming the throne of Gondor, as he probably would of survived the attack on Minas Tirith.

[Eönwë]

I think so too Salah-ad-deen, Boromir would also still have the negativity towards Aragorn as he had in Rivendell! So Aragorn would have a hard time becoming king and first he had too convince everybody to ride to the Black Gate if Frodo didn't already destroyed the Ring (I think without Faramir)

Echtelion,
I think the same but you can read it differently...
This happened at the Battle of Fornost, or some minutes after:
The Witch-king appeared, singled out Eärnur, and rode upon him with a cry. The Prince could have withstood him but his horse was so frightened that, while baring him, fled far away before he could master it. As the Witch-king laughed at this, Glorfindel rode up on his white horse, and in mid laugh the Witch-king fled into the darkness of the night.

But Glorfindel entered the battle with the forces from Rivendell so maybe he didn't flee for Glorfindel but for the power of Rivendell (with Glorfindel as commander)

Anyway that would indeed be a very nice battle to see!

DrDragun, who would you think won? Galadriel or Saruman?
Glorfindel or the Witchking?

[DrDragun]

Galadriel or Saruman?

Glorfindel or the Witchking?

Under normal conditions I think Sauruman has an advantage over Galadriel and Glorfindel has an advantage over the Witch King. However if Galadriel had her ring and a good breakfast and Sauruman was tired and had the flu then Galadriel could beat him. Both of those battles would be interesting matchups of characters fighting in their best style; swordsman vs swordsman and sorceror vs sorceror.

[Gallus]

I'd love to see any battle with Fingolfin. Sauron without the Ring doesn't stand a chance against him. Witch King vs Glorfindel is not even a contest, ringwraiths are overrated. They are basically cursed men. They don't stand a chance against an elf who slew a Balrog.

[Eönwë]

Me too, see edit of my first post! And Sauron with ring?

Well as the Witch king 'defeated' Gandalf in the movie (extended version) most people think he is the strongest in Middle-Earth besides Sauron.
I added that duel to make people think twice and prove them different
Still my opinion though.

Maybe Glorfindel was sent back to Middle-Earth with the same 'rules' Gandalf had..

[Arǭmēz]

Feanor Vs Glaurung... ok that is a battle i would like to see... not that there would be much to see...
they would fight mentaly... then Feanor would grow impatient and cut glaurung in two thus resuming his way to reclaim the Silmarilli...

What always interested me as a what if scenarios are:
what would have come to pass if Morgoth was captive one more age... would he then have power to corrupt Feanor?
what if Silmarien had inherited the sceptre of Numenor thus making Elendil a direct descendant... would Numenor have succumbed so totally to the shadow?
what if Deagol had taken the Ring instead of Smeagol?
and sooooo on

Ok i totally love this thread!

[DrDragun]

Well Gandalf also defeated a Balrog, and my reading of the Battle of Pelennor Fields is that Gandalf and the Witch King would be a close matchup. Furthermore, Gandalf was Grey when he defeated the Balrog and White when he faced the Witch King. Like I said I believe Glorfindel would have an advantage, but it would be a great battle of swords and wills.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I would like to see what-if in which Sauron actually returns to Aman during the end of the First Age.

[Gallus]

That scene in the extended edition was ridiculous, there is no way any man could ever defeat a Maia in a duel. We don't know if TA Glorfindel is the same as FA Glorfindel, but if he is WK would be dead before he could wet himself. As of Fingolfin vs Sauron with the Ring, that's a tough one. But considering the fact that Elendil and Gil-galad managed to kill Sauron I'd still put my money on Fingolfin.

[DrDragun]

there is no way any man could ever defeat a Maia in a duel

Isildur

Witch King is not really a man. He's a man with a Ring of Power and 3000 years to practice swordsmanship.

[Gallus]

Isildur

Books

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Books

Well played.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Elu Thingol vs Sauron would be a curbstomp.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I prefer to go with the interpretation that Isildur just cut off his finger after he died.

[deusvult6]

I can't really see Bard slaying Durin's Bane with a single arrow, but you never know.

I prefer to go with the interpretation that Isildur just cut off his finger after he died.

I interpreted the fight as far more grisly and gritty than shown in the films not only in the physical aspect but the mental in a contest of wills, but I saw the "thrown down" as a horrendous grapple in the blood and dust that took all three of the heroes to finally best him and only just barely with Isildur finally hacking away at his hand with a shattered sword hilt. It would have had to have been a dreadful fight for him to consider that a viable weapon.

I'd kind of like to see a Hurin 1v1 with Sauron.

And a speculative Tom vs Sauron outcome: http://www.moddb.com/mods/rj-rotwk/v...has-those-days
More seriously, I think it mentions that his power was more diffuse than others like Sauron and the Balrog or the Istari; that it was spread out throughout the earth and nature. In addition his mindset is not really suited to that of a warrior. Gandalf mentions that if Sauron should triumph, Tom would be the last holdout but he would fall in the end ,too. I imagine it would be more like Melian than Tulkas or Orome, so his powers would probably be much reduced once out of his element in a land claimed by Sauron's will and utterly deprived of natural life.

[Ngugi]

I prefer to go with the interpretation that Isildur just cut off his finger after he died.

In general likewise;

'I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'
- Elrond, FotR; The Council of Elrond

But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

I would describe it as Gil-galad and Elendil defeated Sauron, Isildur then just went up and made a coup de grâce at the fallen maia.

[DrDragun]

Books

Remind me of what I'm missing, if you will. I recall Sauron smashes Elendil, burns Gil-Galad, then Isildur takes up broken Narsil and cuts the ring from his hand. I do not recall a great deal of detail on this, but I imagined them fighting rather than the portrayal in the films.