Rohan v Isengard

[Salah-ad-deen]

Toe to toe who is stronger? Isengard Uruks or Men Of Rohan

[DrDragun]

Under what conditions? Do we consider 1 stack of each in battle? Or factor in campaign map positions, training timers, economy, etc?

For battles, Isengard is advantaged in sieges and Rohan in open field battles.

I think if all factions were removed from the map, it was just Isengard vs Rohan and every other settlement was rebels, then Isengard would have the advantage as the game went longer.

[Eönwë]

If the AI could make proper use of the Rohirrim cavalry, Isengard wouldn't have a change

Not my opinion but a fact

[LuckyPistol]

I've done multiple Isengard vs Rohan battles, and those Uruk Pikes almost completely negate even the highest of Rohan Cavalry. The Reavers do a good job of fending off the lower horsemen and such, but they won't be coming back in strong numbers. Rohan has much better archers, but the Uruk Crossbow men can hold their own for a while in melee until they get help. Rohan definately has more variety of units and morale and has the complete advantage in the campaign. Isengard has spearmen, but their really only effective against low tier cavalry :/

I believe Isengard does better in head to head battles, but it really depends on what units each side has. Rohan dominates campagin.

A quick question, does Isengard have better Wargs than the other orc factions, or is it just me?

[DrDragun]

A quick question, does Isengard have better Wargs than the other orc factions, or is it just me?

Isengard Wargs have 7 damage while the other 2 factions have 4 damage armor piercing. Both sides have +10 charge, so it's really 14 vs 17 damage when charging.

Isengard's Wargs would be better against low and medium armor enemies.

Here is the full Palantir Unit Guide
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?5719r5rbeazc710

[Zimmy]

Actually, you would be surprised how well Rohan does in melee. Try battling at the Fords of Isen, you're unstoppable against even three stacks if you have one stack there.

[DrDragun]

Actually, you would be surprised how well Rohan does in melee. Try battling at the Fords of Isen, you're unstoppable against even three stacks if you have one stack there.

Yeah but the AI is bad. Rohan can't really match the power density of Berserkers for gate/wall fighting. Stacking armor against Rohan usually isn't the strongest strat since they have a big roster of axemen, so it's best to match Uruk Infantry against Eorling Swords or any spear units and try to tank all the Rohan axemen with basic raiders or Dunelings while Berserkers run around and hack up the flanks.

Rohan certainly isn't bad by any means, they are pretty well balanced factions.

[ppetrus]

those Uruk Pikes almost completely negate even the highest of Rohan Cavalry.

Not if they are charged from behind. And what is cavalry for if not for their high manoeuvrability?

[Dwarven Berserker]

Not if they are charged from behind. And what is cavalry for if not for their high manoeuvrability?

In my experience, charging pikemen from any direction with cavalry is pretty much suicide in TATW. I've mutiple times had my swan knights get slaughtered by southron pikemen, even though I charged them from behind. I think this has to do with the fact that pikemen in TATW are stuck in "pike-mode" while in vanilla they would switch to "sword mode" if enemy units came close.

[LuckyPistol]

In my experience, charging pikemen from any direction with cavalry is pretty much suicide in TATW. I've mutiple times had my swan knights get slaughtered by southron pikemen, even though I charged them from behind. I think this has to do with the fact that pikemen in TATW are stuck in "pike-mode" while in vanilla they would switch to "sword mode" if enemy units came close.

This

I kinda like the all-pike mode, it works to your advantage in most situations, if you're attacking (if you have archers at least) or using them

[ppetrus]

In my experience, charging pikemen from any direction with cavalry is pretty much suicide in TATW. I've mutiple times had my swan knights get slaughtered by southron pikemen, even though I charged them from behind. I think this has to do with the fact that pikemen in TATW are stuck in "pike-mode" while in vanilla they would switch to "sword mode" if enemy units came close.

Still, will not agree. If you rely on your cavalry, then the appearing of pikemen should be a red light and you need to be extra cautious. A well planned and succesfully carried out charge from behind should decimate and rout the pikemen. If not, you should have a second cavalry unit nearby and crush pikemen from the other side (a hammer and anvil tactic) when they get in fight with the first horsemen unit. Good timing = no losses. When playing Gondor I made my main anti-Harad army consisting of 75% cavalry. Never complained about losses when fought against southron pikemen, although it was maybe because that taking them out was the very first thing I was doing.

Rohan's troops generally excel in defense, but fail in attack, though their cavalry are obviously the best in the game.

The best, only when concerning the variety of roster. Annuminas Knights and Eldarinwe nobles are better and Swan Knights and Serpent Guards (lol) equals Rohan's best.
Another thing is that Rohan rely mostly on cavalry and then on armour piercing shock infantry, having almost no foot archers. And that is the most offensive setting. I would say High Elves are definition how defensive factions fight: plenty of strong archers, decent choice of well armoured infantry and rare but fast and reliable cavalry.

[Macilrille]

In my experience, charging pikemen from any direction with cavalry is pretty much suicide in TATW. I've mutiple times had my swan knights get slaughtered by southron pikemen, even though I charged them from behind. I think this has to do with the fact that pikemen in TATW are stuck in "pike-mode" while in vanilla they would switch to "sword mode" if enemy units came close.

You are doing it wrong then, I would guess that you are keeping them in melee instead of swiftly withdrawing or slicing through them to charge anew. Keep your cursor over the enemy unit and notice how they fall in droves as the charge hits. When the number goes down, pull out or through, or keep the cursor over your own unit, when it stops "charging", pull it out or slice through.

This way, your cavalry will rule the battlefield and used that way 4-5 Gondorian FMs can annihilate any infantry army.

[LuckyPistol]

You are doing it wrong then, I would guess that you are keeping them in melee instead of swiftly withdrawing or slicing through them to charge anew. Keep your cursor over the enemy unit and notice how they fall in droves as the charge hits. When the number goes down, pull out or through, or keep the cursor over your own unit, when it stops "charging", pull it out or slice through.

This way, your cavalry will rule the battlefield and used that way 4-5 Gondorian FMs can annihilate any infantry army.

I don't think you're giving the Uruk Pikemen enough credit. In my experience with two Isengard campaigns, one Rohan campaign, and my current Gondor campaign, that is a well feared unit if I don't have the proper archers to douse 'em. This might be just me, but I feel only the dwarves have better pikemen (unless the elves have pikemen, which I can't remember...), and that ISengard pikes have an above average reach. But as I said, I think that's just me.
I can't remember if the unit size is 251 or 151 though

[Dwarven Berserker]

You are doing it wrong then, I would guess that you are keeping them in melee instead of swiftly withdrawing or slicing through them to charge anew. Keep your cursor over the enemy unit and notice how they fall in droves as the charge hits. When the number goes down, pull out or through, or keep the cursor over your own unit, when it stops "charging", pull it out or slice through.

This way, your cavalry will rule the battlefield and used that way 4-5 Gondorian FMs can annihilate any infantry army.

I've been testing this out in custom battles, and.... I have to admit you're right It's totally possible to have cavalry charge in and out pikemen without a lot of casualties. However, I think saying that the pikem will be "falling in droves" is a bit of an exaggeration. You won't kill nearly as many pikemen in a charge as you would against an infantry unit.

Or maybe I'm just doing that part wrong as well

[Salah-ad-deen]

I don't totally agree with you Berserker, I have charged Rohan Scouts into Dunland spear-men and have had devestating results. (but you have to get your horse out fast)

[Dwarven Berserker]

I don't totally agree with you Berserker, I have charged Rohan Scouts into Dunland spear-men and have had devestating results. (but you have to get your horse out fast)

I was talking about pikemen (The guys with the house-high spears), not about spearmen (who merely have man-high spears ). Beating spearmen with cavalry isn't very hard indeed, but with pikemen, it's a whole different story

[Salah-ad-deen]

I was talking about pikemen (The guys with the house-high spears), not about spearmen (who merely have man-high spears ). Beating spearmen with cavalry isn't very hard indeed, but with pikemen, it's a whole different story

Indeed a different matter

[Garriath]

I really have to argue that, if the player's in charge, Rohan has a very, very clear advantage against Isengard both on the campaign map and the battlefield.

It's really on the campaign map that Isengard gets screwed, as its the smallest faction, and its cities, besides Orthanc, are quite poor. Rohan, on the other hand, holds multiple times the size of Isengard's territory, many cities of which have a garrison script, and many of whose cities are either highly developed, or easily developable. While Isengard is also essentially constrained to expand west, Rohan can choose to expand east, west, and north.

Even on the battlefield, though, Rohan still has the advantage. Now, there's no question that both factions are capable of fielding highly capable armies. The issue is just that Rohan's are cavalry-based, and Isengard's are infantry based. Cavalry, when used properly, utterly annihilates the enemy while taking often literally 0 casualties. Infantry, on the other hand, inevitably suffer losses even in the best case scenario. As such, Rohan, who is already blessed with a robust economy, really needs to spend very little money reinforcing their troops, and can devote most of their funds either to development or to augmenting their already-enormous starting army, which is constantly gaining experience following every battle. Isengard, on the other hand, needs to use an initially much more vulnerable starting economy to simply make up for the losses its making with each battle.

As Rohan, it's very easy to have wiped Isengard off the map by turn 20. My last game as Isengard, I was only able to take Rohan out by turn 70.

It's been observed before that this is probably the area of the map that needs the most work, balance-wise. You can make the argument that Isengard should have the advantage, or you can make the (probably better) argument that the two factions should be roughly equal. As it stands, though, Rohan simply outdoes its rival in both the campaign and battle maps.

[RuleBritannia]

Uruk-Hai Infantry and Pikemen easily beat Rohan's infantry, as do their Wargs, but Rohan cavalry annihilate even the strongest regiments of Uruks, besides Pikemen. However, Uruk-Hai troops are excellent when on the attack, but not good in defending as much. Rohan's troops generally excel in defense, but fail in attack, though their cavalry are obviously the best in the game.

[Fallen Angel Ezekiel]

I normally take 6 infantry, some horse archers and the rest as cavalry. I let my infantry be the bait and get swamped while my cavalry comes around and attacks from all sides doing charges, break off and charge again. I always use my horse archers to take out as many pike and spear units as possible.

I do believe rohans infantry is weaker than isengards uruks but I just use them as fodder anyway.