Help with Mods and Thoughts...

[JCB206]

Is there a way to reduce distance to the capitol? I want to try moding these items...

1. Roads - reduce distance to capital penalty because this decreases travel time
- reduce culture penalty because of trade and interaction with new empire/republic
- Increase Law and Order (more than present) due to patrols and troops can reinforce faster
- Increase happiness due to quicker travel and not strolling through the mud and woods

2. Ports - reduce distance to capital penalty because this decreases travel time
- reduce culture penalty because of trade and interaction with new empire/republic

If possible to lose these bonuses when port bloackaded/road blocked. Make it more important to take out rebel armies and patrol sea lanes. After a couple turns, the high distance to capitol and culture penalty would cause some cities to riot.


Next, Farming...how to increase income to show as farming on Financial Screen. If you have good farm land, it should be at least 1/3 of income. Mine is usually 5-10%.

Garrisons...any way to make some units increase law and order more than others? Say by stats or training (rabble, trained, highly trained, etc.) Reform infantry, loyal to Carthage, should keep the peace better than local javelinen, freshly trained. I hate that I have cities with 10-12 cheap garrison units, that should have no real loyalty to me, costing $3-4K a turn when I could garrison 2-4 good units there and be more realistic. Maybe a combination of professional and local troops could show joint security efforts, raising happiness. Cavalry in a city should keep the peace better than weak light infatry/javs through fear and awe, but they don't because they have less numbers.


There must be another way to compute the garrison strength. The battle screen computes differently, sometimes showing my 400 man army stronger than the enemies 800 man army. Seasoned TW members know that numbers don't mean victory. Quality troops and commanders win battles. Same should hold true in winning the battle of occupation. Also once culture reaches a certain point, why can't you build a barracks and recruit locally trained professionals for your army. Not like legions in Iberia, but only then having the local troops that are worth having.


And...Sometime between the First Punic War and the Second, Carthage used its local Libyan and Liby-Phoc population to supply manpower to raise African Heavy Infantry, that fought in the same style as the Romans, and maybe even used Iberian tribes for manpower yet you can only build them in Carthage and so far three cities in Iberia. I could understand if they could only be built in Carthage and the surrounding cities but it seems some are availiable in Iberia. Is it hard to believe they would have continued to train locals in this way in new lands? They only used these two manpower pools as they were the largest available in their control at the time.

Hannibal had, from some sources, 20000 of these troops when he began his march through Spain and the Alps. Seems like they would continue using conquered peoples once they proved loyal. I think Hannibal, if not most Carthagian commanders were becoming leary of full mercenary armies since the Mercenary War. So Hannibal made good use of 10000-20000 (including 8000 Gauls) mercenaries but always had his hard core, and loyal, African line infantry and Numidian allies to fall back on if he had any probems. So should reform infantry be able to be recruited in new regions after a certain occupation time? Say 20 turns or 5 years? 10 years? Or should they only be allowed to be recruited in Africa, near Carthage? Because in the game they can only be built in Carthage (in Africa)? Kinda makes them special I guess. And only two cities can build the Longchpol (Sp?) reform troops and not in the same places as heavy infantry. Weird. Thoughts?



Mercenary Units - should they decrease Happiness in cities? Any way to do this?
-Why is the purchase price so crazy? I can build a Sacred Band infantry unit (and upkeep them for close to the same) for a light infantry mercenary. $20K...Should be one or two turns worth of upkeep. All armies in those times hired Mercs, especially the Carthagian Republic. No one can afford those prices.
-Saw in a Mod where the victorious army gets to loot a losing army after destroying it...Is there a small mod to implement this? The reason I ask is can it be set up to let the Mercs in your army get 20% of the loot or maybe a percentage based on their size vs professionals/levies. This would be a good way to justify a lower cost and make Mercs a usable portion of your army and a drain. Steal your loot and can't govern cities. Thoughts?
-Go negative on money, even though hard to do, is possible for a couple of turns, the Mercs should rebel immediately and form rebel bands in your territory.


All I got for now...I know its long but thanks to those that finished. Trying to make the game more realistic in some points and more enjoyable in some. If there is anyway to implement these changes or reasons why it wouldn't be realistic, let me know. Thanks.

[Muizer]

Is there a way to reduce distance to the capitol? I want to try moding these items...

1. Roads - reduce distance to capital penalty because this decreases travel time
- reduce culture penalty because of trade and interaction with new empire/republic
- Increase Law and Order (more than present) due to patrols and troops can reinforce faster
- Increase happiness due to quicker travel and not strolling through the mud and woods

2. Ports - reduce distance to capital penalty because this decreases travel time
- reduce culture penalty because of trade and interaction with new empire/republic

If possible to lose these bonuses when port bloackaded/road blocked. Make it more important to take out rebel armies and patrol sea lanes. After a couple turns, the high distance to capitol and culture penalty would cause some cities to riot.

Distance to capital is determined solely by the number of map tiles. In Vanilla RTW, a map tile covers about 10km in the real world. In RTR VII it's less than 4. In all, this means that on the RTR map the DTC penalty increases 2 to 3 times faster per km or mile. There's nothing we can do about that. In fact, the plateau of 80% is reached so fast that in the overall balancing of public order we've taken it as a baseline level. Compensation comes from buildings and traits.

Next, Farming...how to increase income to show as farming on Financial Screen. If you have good farm land, it should be at least 1/3 of income. Mine is usually 5-10%.

Yes it should be. However, there's a very important financial balancing mechanism in the game which required us to scale up the numbers of income and expenses. Alas, farming income is hard-coded, so it is stuck at the old, low level.

Garrisons...any way to make some units increase law and order more than others? Say by stats or training (rabble, trained, highly trained, etc.) Reform infantry, loyal to Carthage, should keep the peace better than local javelinen, freshly trained. I hate that I have cities with 10-12 cheap garrison units, that should have no real loyalty to me, costing $3-4K a turn when I could garrison 2-4 good units there and be more realistic. Maybe a combination of professional and local troops could show joint security efforts, raising happiness. Cavalry in a city should keep the peace better than weak light infatry/javs through fear and awe, but they don't because they have less numbers.

I'm not the unit expert, but afaik "ability to keep order" is not a parameter that can be set per unit. In theory I think you could write scripts for this or incorporate it in traits. The problem with this is simply the volume of code. The script language is such that it usually does not allow you to make general rules. Instead each concrete instance has to have its own rule. So, think of all the specific permutations of a rule, down to the name of the settlement, of the unit, of the character!

I'm afraid the other questions are outside of my area of expertise. Perhaps someone else can comment.

[JCB206]

Distance to capital is determined solely by the number of map tiles. In Vanilla RTW, a map tile covers about 10km in the real world. In RTR VII it's less than 4. In all, this means that on the RTR map the DTC penalty increases 2 to 3 times faster per km or mile. There's nothing we can do about that. In fact, the plateau of 80% is reached so fast that in the overall balancing of public order we've taken it as a baseline level. Compensation comes from buildings and traits.

Well I increased Law and Order extra for roads to cover happiness and distance to capital penalties. Accomplishes the same thing, now I have 2 good units in each city that are developed. I feel better. How many TW players here just garrison their towns (not on the front) with loads of crap units? Cheapest and most numerous you can find and would use peasants if available. Most of my armies are between 1200-2000 men and I have 2000+ men guarding any city not within a stones throw of me. Thanks for explanation.

Yes it should be. However, there's a very important financial balancing mechanism in the game which required us to scale up the numbers of income and expenses. Alas, farming income is hard-coded, so it is stuck at the old, low level.

I increased the farming bonuses and it has come up about 50%. About 10-12% of my income, up from 5%. Increased the tax bonuses and increased my taxes 30% overall but not the look I was going for. Will keep playing with it. If anyone has any better ideas please post them. Mainly looking at Rome and Carthage economies at the moment and EVERYTHING I have read about the farms at Carthage is that they put the farms in Italy to shame (during this time period). Carthage should get rewarded for the great farm land. So should Egypt, but to that later.

I'm not the unit expert, but afaik "ability to keep order" is not a parameter that can be set per unit. In theory I think you could write scripts for this or incorporate it in traits. The problem with this is simply the volume of code. The script language is such that it usually does not allow you to make general rules. Instead each concrete instance has to have its own rule. So, think of all the specific permutations of a rule, down to the name of the settlement, of the unit, of the character!

I'm afraid the other questions are outside of my area of expertise. Perhaps someone else can comment.

That seems excessive. Each unit has a "battle rating" or "strength", thought that would be much easier. Thank you so much for your responses. First out of 100+ views.

Hope I responded correctly to see each one.

Anybody else have any ideas?

[JCB206]

Well didn't do it right. The responses are there, just hard to read. Why can't I edit?

[Mausolos of Caria]

Well didn't do it right. The responses are there, just hard to read. Why can't I edit?

I think you can't edit before you have a certain number of posts. I can't say too much aboot yer other questions as I'm no member of the RTR mod team.

[Muizer]

Mainly looking at Rome and Carthage economies at the moment and EVERYTHING I have read about the farms at Carthage is that they put the farms in Italy to shame (during this time period).

I'd be interested to hear where you read this. I know Roman North Africa was a major supplier of Grain but considering the agricultural output was greatly increased in response to Roman demand that doesn't say much about the production in our time frame.

[JCB206]

I'd be interested to hear where you read this. I know Roman North Africa was a major supplier of Grain but considering the agricultural output was greatly increased in response to Roman demand that doesn't say much about the production in our time frame.

I will provide a links on a quick search. Need to find the website I was reading today om ancient accounts of the farms of carthage, but here is my quick search:

http://phoenicia.org/puniceconomy.html

Carthage was fairly advanced in agriculture and was a net exporter of grains, and famous for her horses, which strongly resemble the Arabian horses of today. Mago wrote a 28 volume treatise on agriculture and soil conservation, which was so highly valued by the Romans that they ordered it translated into Latin for their own use after the fall of Carthage in 146 B.C. They practiced irrigation and crop rotation, possibly learned from their contacts with Egypt and other near eastern countries. After the disastrous loss of the Second Punic war with Rome (202 B.C.), Hannibal was elected Shophet (or Suffete, a post very similar to the Judge-Kings of Israel), and pushed through a number of government reforms, and placed renewed emphasis on agriculture which was highly successful, allowing Carthage to pay her heavy war indemnity to Rome and recover her wealth, in spite of the loss of her empire. Legend has it that the Romans went so far as to salt the earth of Carthage after her utter destruction to prevent her rising again.

http://cornellia.fws1.com/Ancientworlds/carthage.htm

The agricultural resources of northern Tunisia were first exploited by the Carthaginians and this was the foundation of the famous prosperity of the area in the Roman period.

http://www.ancient.eu.com/africa/

As Carthaginian power grew, its impact on the indigenous population increased dramatically. Berber civilization was already at a stage in which agriculture, manufacturing, trade, and political organization supported several states. Trade links between Carthage and the Berbers in the interior grew, but territorial expansion also resulted in the enslavement or military recruitment of some Berbers and in the extraction of tribute from others. By the early 4th century BCE, Berbers formed one of the largest element, with Gauls, of the Carthaginian army.

After roman occupation: The prosperity of most towns depended on agriculture. Called the "granary of the empire," North Africa was one of the largest exporters of grain in the empire, which was exported to the provinces which did not produce cereals, like Italy and Greece.

http://www.ancient.eu.com/carthage/

After the fall of the great Phoenician city of Tyre to Alexander the Great in 332 BCE, those Tyrians who were able to escape fled to Carthage with whatever wealth they had. Since many whom Alexander spared were those rich enough to buy their lives, these refugees landed in the city with considerable means and established Carthage as the new center of Phoenician trade. The Carthaginians then drove the native Africans from the area, enslaved many of them, and exacted tribute from the rest. From a small town on the coast, the city grew in size and grandeur with enormous estates covering miles of acreage. Not even one hundred years passed before Carthage was the richest city in the Mediterranean. The aristocrats lived in palaces, the less affluent in modest but attractive homes, while tribute and tariffs regularly increased the city’s wealth on top of the lucrative business in trade.

http://www.mofga.org/Publications/Ma...0/Default.aspx

Farming, rather than maritime trade and commerce, had been the real source of strength in the city that once rivaled Rome for control of the Mediterranean and that was eradicated by “ethnic cleansing.” Carthaginians who hadn’t been killed in the siege of Carthage or killed themselves were sold into slavery. The entire literature of the people who invented the phonetic alphabet and taught it to Greece and Rome was consigned to flames – with one major exception: the 28-book treatise on agriculture written by Mago, whom Greeks and Romans alike called “The Father of Farming.”

Other classical writers, such as Theophrastus, had written about agriculture before, and Virgil would famously write The Georgics two centuries after Carthage was destroyed. But the Romans, who hated all things Carthaginian, thought enough of Mago to translate and preserve his 28 books into Latin. Mago’s applied advice had made the Carthaginians celebrated for their production of staple and luxury foods, and had enabled the maritime city to pay off a staggering indemnity even after the Romans destroyed their trade nexus with hostile treaties. (U.S. Secretary of War Henry Stinson called the tentative Morgenthau Plan aimed at the permanent economic destruction of defeated Germany “Carthaginian.”) In the end, farming first saved Carthage from economic destruction and then provoked the city’s military annihilation.

*Just a few of course...Love the Father of Farming thing, found that last night. There are more if you would like them. Carthage was a huge agriculture society from fishing, barley, wheat, raisins, wine, etc, etc, etc, and the greatest of all! Horses...they had they greatest horses west of Asia Minor. And of course because of all this material to trade including glass and purple dye (very expensive!) tin, silver and gold to trade made them the greatest maritime power in the western mediterranean. They weren't the greatest traders just because they had some ships (lots), they had plenty of commodities to trade, so they built ships and more ships. And their caravan trade in Africa was very profitable also. They had mercenaries under arms at all times and to do that, considering they only fought every 30-50 years or so (great to be a well paid mercenary for Carthage) they must have have loads of money.

I did find some interesting stuff in my research...they refer to all troops (not citizen) as mercenaries...repeatedly they call lyban, Iberian, Celtic, Berber, Numidian troops mercenaries. So many of their troops came from the subserveint Lyban and Iberian (two largest manpower pools) but they still called them mercenaries. Makes sense...they aren't citizens and they are paid. And they armed most of them. Most countries call that a levy.*

Let me know what you think. There are many more sources. Some from Polybius (i believe thats the correct one) who wrote about the great estates of Carthage. Thanks.

[JCB206]

http://www.mofga.org/Publications/MaineOrganicFarmerGardener/Winter20112012/Mago/tabid/2050/Default.aspx

That last link was a fun read, will post some more, incase people dont want to read the whole thing...

Even before Mago wrote about farming, Homer, who described what later became “the island of admirals” as “an island of many goats,” said the future site of Carthage on the north shore of Africa was fertile and promising. “It is by no means a poor country, but capable of yielding any crop in due season … where the vine would never wither, and there is plenty of land level enough for the plow, where farmers could count on cutting a deep crop at every harvest time, for the soil below the surface is exceeding rich. Also it has a safe harbor… at the head of the harbor is a stream of fresh water, running out of a cave in a grove of poplar trees.”

“Anyone who has bought land should sell his town house so that he will have no desire to worship the households of the city rather than those of the country,” Mago wrote as preserved in a Latin translation, respectfully ordered by the Roman Senate. “The man who takes great delight in his city residence will have no need of a country estate.” Mago’s advice, taken to heart even by Romans who hated Carthage, led to the Roman cult of the gentleman farmer familiar to readers of the Latin classics long after Carthage was burned and plowed with salt.

From the days of Mago through the destruction, Carthage was surrounded by two rings of agricultural plantings: The inner ring for olives, fruit trees, grapes and vegetables, and the outer, less dependant on irrigation, for a vast wheat field. Mago also wrote about breeding horses, mules and other farm animals, and beekeeping, vital in the ancient world because fig juice was the only other sweetener. Beeswax was used in art and household work.

Oxen provided draft animals for plows (the Carthaginians were the first people in history to use iron plows), manure for fields, and hides.

Even the hostile Romans loved Carthaginian raisin wine, a specialty beverage sold to Italy in huge quantities.

The prosperity that Carthaginians obtained following Mago’s advice was legendary – and lethal. When a hostile Greek army attempted to attack Carthage by land in 310 B.C., before the wars with Rome, the Greek invaders had no trouble feeding their army, even though the city of Carthage still controlled the sea. “The whole country through which they marched was beautiful and gardens planted with all sorts of fruits and sluices and canals were cut all along for the convenience of water, by which the whole tract was abundantly watered… the country is planted partly with vines and partly with olive trees and furnished likewise with many other fruit trees. In another the fields are pastured for flocks of sheep and herds of cows and oxen, and in the neighboring pens run great breeding herds of mares…”

What saved Carthage the first time was their humanity to their Libyan serfs, who did most of the actual farm work: The Libyan peasants and African laborers, weighing their rigidly honest Carthaginian overlords against the Greek usurpers, turned on the Greeks and helped defeat them. Carthage was spared for another 150 years.


After 2nd Punic War - The defeated Carthaginians lost all their elephants, all their colonies outside Africa, and all but 20 of their warships. But they kept their farmland, and their skills in agriculture enabled them to pay off their huge war indemnity ahead of schedule. When Rome, a nominal ally, asked Carthage for 140,000 bushels of wheat to feed a Roman army fighting north of Greece, the Carthaginians not only found the wheat but offered it as a gift. The indignant Romans insisted on paying for it, and the doom of Carthage was sealed by the Carthaginians’ own success in agriculture.

Cato the Elder, a bitter old man in his 80s, visited Carthage and found a walled city four times the size of Rome, beautified by Greek art and architecture, cleaner than Rome and far more prosperous. Envious, he spoke in the Roman Senate and let some ripe figs fall from his woolen toga: These figs, he said, had been picked just three days ago in a city larger and far richer than Rome: DELENDA EST CARTHAGO – “Carthage must be destroyed!”

Despite the critics, the Carthaginians were the greatest farmers of antiquity. The fact that they were subjected to what the modern historian Robert L. O’Connell bluntly describes as the most thoroughgoing sort of genocide makes revisionism almost impossible. Only Mago’s books on agricultural – which survive in about 40 fragments – and Hanno’s account of a voyage around all or part of Africa have survived in Greek or Roman translations that continue to tantalize historians. Mago’s books on farming – strictly practical, with none of the theorizing or politicizing of the intact Greek and Roman works – offer a tantalizing glimpse of the greatest commercial farmers in history.

[Caligula Caesar]

I fixed your quoting

Well I increased Law and Order extra for roads to cover happiness and distance to capital penalties. Accomplishes the same thing, now I have 2 good units in each city that are developed. I feel better. How many TW players here just garrison their towns (not on the front) with loads of crap units? Cheapest and most numerous you can find and would use peasants if available. Most of my armies are between 1200-2000 men and I have 2000+ men guarding any city not within a stones throw of me. Thanks for explanation.

Giving public order bonuses for roads would just give every region with roads higher public order, no matter how near or far they are from the capital, so you would basically just be raising the general level of public order. Personally, I have never had any trouble garrisoning integrated regions, no matter where they are.

I increased the farming bonuses and it has come up about 50%. About 10-12% of my income, up from 5%. Increased the tax bonuses and increased my taxes 30% overall but not the look I was going for. Will keep playing with it. If anyone has any better ideas please post them. Mainly looking at Rome and Carthage economies at the moment and EVERYTHING I have read about the farms at Carthage is that they put the farms in Italy to shame (during this time period). Carthage should get rewarded for the great farm land. So should Egypt, but to that later.

How exactly did you do that? I was under the impression that upping farm values sent settlement growth up pretty excessively. I had heard Carthage had pretty effective farms, fair point there. I wouldn't trust the last link btw, it is guilty of spreading a blatant falsehood (the Romans certainly never spread salt on Carthage's ruins! Besides, what would it matter if the city gets salted? Surely it is the farmland around it that matters...)

That seems excessive. Each unit has a "battle rating" or "strength", thought that would be much easier. Thank you so much for your responses. First out of 100+ views.

I don't think there is a way of doing that, though I did once hear of an "is_peasant" tag you can give units which halves their impact. I assume there is a reason no one uses it, though.

[JCB206]

CC: I fixed your quoting
Me: Thank you, but need to know how to do it...



CC: Giving public order bonuses for roads would just give every region with roads higher public order, no matter how near or far they are from the capital, so you would basically just be raising the general level of public order. Personally, I have never had any trouble garrisoning integrated regions, no matter where they are.

Me: Raising the public order is the point. Why should cities in Africa (SIGA is my example) have to be on low taxes, governer present, 12 garrison units, 20% squalor, 20% culture penalty (why, they are the same culture but tried destroying and rebuilding everything anyway), 20% unrest. Public Order around 200%, been in the Republic for 30 years, all Policy Buildings there, trade, temples, anything I could think of...I pull my governer with 2 units to fight rebels, RIOT!. Put him back in...next turn everything back to normal. Pull 3 units without governer, RIOT! If I raise taxes to Normal, RIOT!. I recruit troops from there to send to other cities, but the population grows faster than I can recruit. Get this population is just now getting over 11,000. Its not overpopulated. I would love to hear some tips you have for governing settlements please?...this isn't the only one.


CC: How exactly did you do that? I was under the impression that upping farm values sent settlement growth up pretty excessively. I had heard Carthage had pretty effective farms, fair point there. I wouldn't trust the last link btw, it is guilty of spreading a blatant falsehood (the Romans certainly never spread salt on Carthage's ruins! Besides, what would it matter if the city gets salted? Surely it is the farmland around it that matters...)

Me: A) Export_descr_building - grain farm trade_base_income_bonus bonus X....it is 1,2,3 respectively for the levels. I added 3,6,9 and in the process of building the second level in a couple cities. Farming income went from 6600 to 13000 so far. I need to play with it to find out what bonus they need. This may be excessive (don't think so) or need to be raised. Also took the Temple of Farming in same document and added bonuses to Farming. Building second level in a few cities. Still testing. But it seems to be working. Now this may cause a population boom, so may have to stick to farm trade base income bonuses. B) Not sure about the whole salt thing...The story about about Cato bringing figs to the senate floor and say Carthage must be destroyed is true from everything I have read. The fact that Carthage was able to repay rome with no colonies (it wasn't suppose to be repaid, it was suppose to cripple) and do it early and still send wheat as a gift to feed a roman army shows how fertile the region must have been. Carthage tried repeatably to pay the reparations in full but Rome wanted the yearly tribute to remind them they were conquered.

Side note about that - If Carthage with 700,000 souls had large enough excess to trade for money for Roma (a HUGE tribute and wanted to pay in full) and give wheat as gifts to feed Roma armies. And at the same time Rome, with 400,000 souls, was having trouble feeding its people, speaks to great lengths of Italian farmlands and practices. Between this farming income and trade income, Carthage was much, much wealthier than Rome. But in the game Carthage suffers the same finacial problems as Rome. More is you consider the distances between cities. Rome can get by with one or two armies. Carthage needs 3-4 in the beginning. Carthage needs trade and farming bonuses in my opinion and/or existing farms, roads, and ports infastructure far superior to rome and many others.

CC: I don't think there is a way of doing that, though I did once hear of an "is_peasant" tag you can give units which halves their impact. I assume there is a reason no one uses it, though.

Me: How do I do that? That might work for Mercenaries on one of my questions. Mercenaries are great but want them to have a negative effect in garrisoning but half would be better than nothing.

[JCB206]

Saw this in the buildings file:

;;;; Distance to Capital compensation
law_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { rome_republic, carthage, epirus, gauls, spain, numidia, slavs, germans, dacia, greek_cities, armenia, parthia, pontus, scythia, seleucid, egypt, thrace, }
happiness_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { rome_republic, carthage, epirus, gauls, spain, numidia, slavs, germans, dacia, greek_cities, armenia, parthia, pontus, scythia, seleucid, egypt, thrace, }

I'm sure there is more. Could changing this reduce distance to capital?

[Caligula Caesar]

Me: Thank you, but need to know how to do it...

When you quote someone, the forum give you (in [], but I'll swap them with () so that it doesn't think I'm actually quoting) (QUOTE=[user]) at the start of the quote and (/QUOTE) at the end. You simply have to copy (QUOTE=[user]) to the start of each section you want to quote and (/QUOTE) to their ends

Me: Raising the public order is the point. Why should cities in Africa (SIGA is my example) have to be on low taxes, governer present, 12 garrison units, 20% squalor, 20% culture penalty (why, they are the same culture but tried destroying and rebuilding everything anyway), 20% unrest. Public Order around 200%, been in the Republic for 30 years, all Policy Buildings there, trade, temples, anything I could think of...I pull my governer with 2 units to fight rebels, RIOT!. Put him back in...next turn everything back to normal. Pull 3 units without governer, RIOT! If I raise taxes to Normal, RIOT!. I recruit troops from there to send to other cities, but the population grows faster than I can recruit. Get this population is just now getting over 11,000. Its not overpopulated. I would love to hear some tips you have for governing settlements please?...this isn't the only one.

To be fair, after the initial period of occupation, time didn't really matter with regards to the frequency of revolts. Revolts still took place in long-established provinces throughout the imperial period. Heck, revolts can even happen in a state's own core territories (in which case it is known as a Revolution, e.g. the French, Russian Revolutions). So I don't think it should be too simple to hold settlements ad infinitum.

Me: A) Export_descr_building - grain farm trade_base_income_bonus bonus X....it is 1,2,3 respectively for the levels. I added 3,6,9 and in the process of building the second level in a couple cities. Farming income went from 6600 to 13000 so far. I need to play with it to find out what bonus they need. This may be excessive (don't think so) or need to be raised. Also took the Temple of Farming in same document and added bonuses to Farming. Building second level in a few cities. Still testing. But it seems to be working. Now this may cause a population boom, so may have to stick to farm trade base income bonuses.

Can you check what this does to population growth? Population growth spiraling out of control is generally not a good thing - swapping farm income to tax or trade income from farms would be the lesser of the two evils.

B) Not sure about the whole salt thing...The story about about Cato bringing figs to the senate floor and say Carthage must be destroyed is true from everything I have read. The fact that Carthage was able to repay rome with no colonies (it wasn't suppose to be repaid, it was suppose to cripple) and do it early and still send wheat as a gift to feed a roman army shows how fertile the region must have been. Carthage tried repeatably to pay the reparations in full but Rome wanted the yearly tribute to remind them they were conquered.

Trust me, it didn't happen. I'll be naughty and quote Wikipedia, but if you really want me to I'll find it in proper history books, which agree that it is a myth. Anyway, Wikipedia says:

Fall
...the end of the series of wars resulted in the end of Carthaginian power and the complete destruction of the city by Scipio Aemilianus. The Romans pulled the Phoenician warships out into the harbour and burned them before the city (...) Fifty thousand Carthaginians were sold into slavery. The city was set ablaze, and razed to the ground, leaving only ruins and rubble. (...) The legend that the city was sown with salt is not mentioned by the ancient sources; R.T. Ridley suggested that the story originated from 1930 in section of the Cambridge Ancient History written by B Hallward whose influence might be an account of Abimelech's salting of Shechem in Judges 9:45. Warmington admitted his fault in repeating Hallward's error but mentions an example of the story that goes back to 1299 when Bonaface VIII destroyed Palestrina.

Wikipedia's account of the fall of Carthage is quite dramatic (I left some bits out), but then again, it was genocide... anyway, it is quite right about Carthage not being salted - after all, Julius Caesar founded a Roman colony on the sight 100 years later, and the city remained great during the Empire. IIRC it was destroyed during the Arab conquest, but Tunis has now grown over it.

Side note about that - If Carthage with 700,000 souls had large enough excess to trade for money for Roma (a HUGE tribute and wanted to pay in full) and give wheat as gifts to feed Roma armies. And at the same time Rome, with 400,000 souls, was having trouble feeding its people, speaks to great lengths of Italian farmlands and practices. Between this farming income and trade income, Carthage was much, much wealthier than Rome. But in the game Carthage suffers the same finacial problems as Rome. More is you consider the distances between cities. Rome can get by with one or two armies. Carthage needs 3-4 in the beginning. Carthage needs trade and farming bonuses in my opinion and/or existing farms, roads, and ports infastructure far superior to rome and many others.

You do have a fair point. One problem, however, is that for the AI, money = expansion. That isn't always the case with Carthage though; I don't think the AI acts the same when its empire is so spread out.

Me: How do I do that? That might work for Mercenaries on one of my questions. Mercenaries are great but want them to have a negative effect in garrisoning but half would be better than nothing.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think you add it to the attributes line of units in export_descr_units. I'm not sure this doesn't have other consequences for unit behaviour and AI recruitment patters etc, though.

[JCB206]

I think I will just have to roleplay.

Army Make-up:
1. At least one LP unit must be in army.
2. 1 LP unit per 2 local - levy/ally
3. General in every offensive army.
4. Elephant unit must be added to offensive armies with more than 2 LP units.
5. Influence of general shows charisma and ability to lead diverse armies. 1 Influence wreath per 2 units of Mercenaries able to command.
6. If general dies - Mercenaries disband. LP and local units (1:1) may fall back. If there is a ratio greater than 1:1 then these extra local units will take the opportunity to seek life among the enemy.

Resrictions:
1. 1 LP unit recruitable per each major regions city level. Up to 5 LP units for cities with Punic Culture only. Thats all thats it. Carthage had very few troops that actually cared about Carthage.
2. Each major region of Punic Culture must have at least 1 LP unit in the garrison. 4 local units can form garrison per LP units. Mercenaries do not garrison towns without Governers with the Influence to keep the peace. 1 Influence wreath per two mercenary units.
3. All Elephants and Carth Heavy Cav built in Carthage. No Sacred Band. These units were defeated and ceased to exist in 310BC.
4. Cannot declare war on allies or attempt to get them to attack you. You are a trading empire and need those trade rights.
5. No adoptions. Though some pure Phoenicians have married into the local population and provided our valuable second class citizens, not in this family. All suitable husbands must have 3 wreaths of Influence. (How i'm going to role play that they are pure.)
6. Two governors must be in Carthage, though one may accompany armies to fight rebels and invasions in and around Carthage.
7. LP units cannot be merged.

Last and certainly not least. I must figure a way to replicate the...whats the word...hmm...Carthage's complete disregard for assisting generals on expeditions against foreign countries.

We have no knowledge of substanial reinforcements being sent to Spain for Hamilcar. He recieved 40 elephants and troops to conquer Iberia and then...there seems to be nothing. Maybe that is how HE wanted it, but I think they thought he would fail or more like hoped. One great thing about Carthage compared to Rome was that Generals held commands for a very long time, as opposed to being re-elected every year. Some Consuls got maybe 6 months of good campaigning then returned home or shared command one day at a time (Very dumb by the way). But Carthage never seemed like they wanted their generals to be overly successful. If a general lost, he was crucified or dismissed and a replacement sent with just enough reinforcements to not be outnumbered too bad. If he was very successful and needed just a little bit of help (due to the size of the opponent), they either sent less than requested or took a swim in their bath tubs. Rome was the first truly great power they faced and I believe they feared Hannibal in command of more and more soldiers or thought for sure Rome would sue for peace, like Carthage would have. Its like they wanted you to win, but barely. In Sicily they sent a large army and fleet and sent reinforcements when they were defeated (sometimes), they didn't support Hamilcar when he was holding firm in a brilliant campaign against overwhelming odds. Carthage had finally found a general that might be able to hold some of Sicily and maybe get a good even peace with Rome or swing the balance in their favor. What did they do, nothing. When Africa was invaded years later, since Hamilcar didn't have a strong fleet to do anything about it and Rome couldn't get at him, they just tell him to seek peace if he could. Then they don't pay the best army they had. Hard to understand the government in Carthage.

So besides flipping a coin to decide if Carthage would send reinforcements after you have fought 3 major battles and two sieges in Sicily and your important LP units (you can of course replace local units and mercs on your own) are deplenished and your Cav has been all but destroyed due to attrition. You need some replenishment and cannot return to N. Africa to be crucified, but Carthage could send fresh core (LP and Cav units) units to allow you to lay siege to Syracuse and swing the war in your favor and put the Romans on the defensive. But will they?

Taking ideas to decide which way the senate decides and either sends help or does absolutely nothing but continue on with trade. Also taking opinions if you think Carthage didn't behave this way. In the game, every player is a dictator. Full complete control, down to where every unit moved and every brick laid. Mods have made Rome a little more interesting to play and now I am looking for a way to do the same with Carthage though mods or roleplaying. When you are sent to fight a country, the army you take is what you get unless on the off chance you get reinforced. Could make for some interesting campaigns and a few defeats.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Impressive posts, you've been giving this a lot of thought . Have some REP for your enthusiasm

[JCB206]

Impressive posts, you've been giving this a lot of thought . Have some REP for your enthusiasm

Thank you. I am a huge history nut if you can't tell. Carthage and Rome were so much alike and yet so different. Both Republics were very good peace time governments. Carthage favored trade and the Romans were builders of the highest order. And yet, in war, they were so different. Carthage gave their generals a free reign, yet no support. Rome constantly supervised, lots of backstabbing, but always gave their generals the army and supplies they needed. And after all that "watching" their generals fought constantly in the late republic. If Rome was defeated, they attacked again with more men or attacked your allies till you were weak. If Carthage lost, they paid some money and said "oh well." I wish we knew more about Carthage. There had to be something behind the scenes. I thought it was just the Barca family, but they did it to so many generals.

Thanks again. I get stuck on a subject and can't stop thinking about it for months.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

I am the same, just need to know everything about the Hellenistic kingdoms- everything! And besides anything else it makes playing extra immersive

[Caligula Caesar]

I'm afraid it isn't possible to limit the amount of troops you can recruit in a city - that's an M2TW innovation

On the question of Carthage's lack of sending support for Hannibal, I can't help but feel that this is at least in part brought on by the fact that Polybius, for all his talk of "universal history", was really interested in anything the Carthaginians who weren't Barcids did. He really doesn't spend much time talking about them, which we take to mean that they didn't do anything. I really do doubt they were sitting on their backsides all the time - we simply don't know what they were doing.

We do know that his brother tried to replicate Hannibal's march but was trapped by a Roman army and killed. We also know that Rome had the naval supremacy after the first war, so getting an army to Italy by sea wouldn't have been particularly easy. I'm also guessing that the Romans were particularly keen to stop the Carthaginians from developing a fleet.

[JCB206]

I'm afraid it isn't possible to limit the amount of troops you can recruit in a city - that's an M2TW innovation

On the question of Carthage's lack of sending support for Hannibal, I can't help but feel that this is at least in part brought on by the fact that Polybius, for all his talk of "universal history", was really interested in anything the Carthaginians who weren't Barcids did. He really doesn't spend much time talking about them, which we take to mean that they didn't do anything. I really do doubt they were sitting on their backsides all the time - we simply don't know what they were doing.

We do know that his brother tried to replicate Hannibal's march but was trapped by a Roman army and killed. We also know that Rome had the naval supremacy after the first war, so getting an army to Italy by sea wouldn't have been particularly easy. I'm also guessing that the Romans were particularly keen to stop the Carthaginians from developing a fleet.

No problem. Role playing will have to do.

After researching a bit more, it seems that Carthage did so some things. They sent reinforcements to Iberia to reinforce after a great battle and loss of life fro Carthage. This occurred after Hasdrubal failed to take advantage of practically destroying the Roman army and killing the two Roman commanders (Scipio Africanus' father and uncle. The romans were reduced to 8000 men and Hasdrubal had well over 50000 men in three armies at the time. Scipio Africanus arrived the next year with 10000 reinforcements (10000 others had already arrived) and defeated Hasdrubal who still hadn't combined with the other two armies for one reason or another. Cathago Nova with its vaulable silver mines were taken before Scipio faced Hasdrubal. After the defeat Hasdrubal (who retreated with most of his cavalry and his elite african infantry) decided to invade Italy instead of rejoin his brother Mago and the other army. The Carthaginians still had great superiority in numbers. Maybe he thought Scipio would follow, who knows. Mago was defeated by Scipio, though he had more troops and Iberia was lost. Mago then left Iberia, on orders from Carthage, after Hasdrubal was defeated in Italy, to keep the war going in Northern Italy and possible join Hannibal.

Carthage also sent an army to Sardinia to assist rebels there against the Romans. The romans had 20,000 troops and Carthage sent 17,000. They also sent 28,000 to Sicily to fight 40,000 romans. So Carthage was pretty active, just not smartly.

Hasdrubal should have destroyed the Romans with his reinforcements after defeating the Scipio brothers. They shouldn't have split armies to Sicily and Sardinia and left both forces outnumbered. Pick one or send them to Hannibal. Those 45,000 troops could have given Hannibal what he needed especially with Iberia in Carthage's hands. Hasdrubal could have then marched 30,000-50,000 troops into northern Italy. Putting 75,000-95,000 more troops in Italy. The 40,000 Roman troops in Sicily (and 20,000 in Sardinia) beseiging Syracuse would either have to go back to Italy or be on the wrong side of Rome. Those troops attacking Syracuse would have left and Syrcause would have remained an ally and helped retake Sicily. With over 100,000 troops in Italy, most with Hannibal, Sicily and Sardinia behind enemy lines, and the troops in Iberia wiped out, Rome would have either fought to the death (losing their allies again) or sued for peace.

So I was wrong...Carthage didn't sit on their hands (truely appoligize) they just never fully tried to give any one general overall superiority in the field. A little too scattered. Displeasure with the Barcids? Still think Carthage came very close to winning. And why not rebuild the navy to cut off grain from Sardinia to Rome. That was a big one.