Polish President possibly assasinated by Russians.

[Diglytron]

Directly from Reuters press:

Reuters:...

Polish investigators found traces of explosives on the wreckage of the government jet that crashed in Russia two years ago, killing Poland's president and 95 others, daily Rzeczpospolita reported on Tuesday.

Without citing sources, the newspaper said prosecutors and explosive experts who examined the remains of the plane in Russia found signs of TNT and nitroglycerin on the wings and in the cabin, including on 30 seats.

Traces of explosives were also found in the area where the Tu-154 crashed during its approach to a small airport near the Russian city of Smolensk on April 10, 2010, the daily reported.

Poland's military prosecutor's office plans to respond to the report later on Tuesday, its spokesman said.

Russian investigators had blamed the Polish crew for trying to land in heavy fog, while their Polish counterparts also said the airport controllers should not have allowed the plane to attempt an approach.

Some rightist groups in Poland, including main opposition party Law and Justice, had rejected the findings and suggested the crash could have been an assassination of President Lech Kaczynski and political and military leaders who flew with him.

In their official reports, investigators said they found no proof of the involvement of third parties.

The investigators have not ruled out the possibility that the traces of explosives come from unexploded bombs dating back to World War Two that could have remained in the area where the aircraft came down, the newspaper said.

Well, that's intresting! Kaczynski could possible be assasinated by the Russians. I am still looking for a good argument for the Russians to kill Kaczynski.... And, another example of the still ongoing Cold War?

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...76a_story.html

Originally from AP.

[Stavroforos]

I can't wait for our resident Russophobes to pick up on this, but in any case, there's no reason to believe the Russian state did this unless they find some pretty concrete evidence, which is unlikely.

[Treize]

I can't wait for our resident Russophobes to pick up on this, but in any case, there's no reason to believe the Russian state did this unless they find some pretty concrete evidence, which is unlikely.

Exactly.

[removeduser_487563287433]

"Without citing sources".

Huge issue, right there.

Mind you, the paper is a respectable one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rzeczpospolita_(newspaper)

I remember discussing this at the time, and in the end it turned out that the Russians had tried to hamper Polish investigators, whilst producing a highly criticised and insufficient investigation themselves.

But I don't understand what they would have to gain by assassinating the Polish President. Poland is firmly in the western camp now, with nothing for Russia to gain. It keeps KJB style operations to Ukraine and places like that.

[Diglytron]

"Without citing sources".

Huge issue, right there.

Mind you, the paper is a respectable one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rzeczpospolita_(newspaper)

I remember discussing this at the time, and in the end it turned out that the Russians had tried to hamper Polish investigators, whilst producing a highly criticised and insufficient investigation themselves.

But I don't understand what they would have to gain by assassinating the Polish President. Poland is firmly in the western camp now, with nothing for Russia to gain. It keeps KJB style operations to Ukraine and places like that.

Sorry for not brining more sources in the OP. I get it directly from the Reuters feed and was to lazy to find some other sources. Or the main source. I will add some more later on, if the discussion is going well.

I agree to the last part of your post. And thats the minor question I want to discuss aswell. The Kremblin has nothing to gain in Poland. They are in the Western camp and have a huge dislike against their formal dictators. There for, I think there should be looked at alternative terrorist groups or countries aswell. I just can't fit myself into the Russian atack thing since its way to obvious. Not sure but it was eaven at the remenbrance of Katyn right? Thats just to obvious... Tough, It could be possible in those formal communist regimes.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Sorry for not brining more sources in the OP. I get it directly from the Reuters feed and was to lazy to find some other sources. Or the main source. I will add some more later on, if the discussion is going well.

Reuters is a perfectly acceptable source, but the fact that Reuters is highlighting the primary source does not reference where it got its information makes the entire story much more dubious.

But maybe looking for Russian motivation is the wrong method. I mean, they were capable of murdering Litvinenko out of nothing but revenge, and didn't even bother trying to cover their tracks with that.

[Diglytron]

Reuters is a perfectly acceptable source, but the fact that Reuters is highlighting the primary source does not reference where it got its information makes the entire story much more dubious.

But maybe looking for Russian motivation is the wrong method. I mean, they were capable of murdering Litvinenko out of nothing but revenge, and didn't even bother trying to cover their tracks with that.

Yeah, agreed. Thing is most of the other sources I could place here are just copy pasting from Reuters and AP. I later found out that is was an Polish newspaper who was reporting it in the first place, the one you linked .

But maybe looking for Russian motivation is the wrong method. I mean, they were capable of murdering Litvinenko out of nothing but revenge, and didn't even bother trying to cover their tracks with that.

Goodpoint. The murder of Litvinenko could be an way for the Russians to create fear under other secret agents like ''We are not forgoten you''. But yeah, this assasination could also to make an statement to other presidents in the formal east-block..

[Adar]

I'm sorry but this doesn't make any kind of sense.

We know that the flight departed from Warsaw. And we know that it crashed on arrival in Smolensk as it came in too low and collided with trees.

Finding TNT on the plane would mean that it must have been applied to the plane in Warsaw. In other words someone with access to explosives in Poland would have placed the claimed bomb on the plane.

So the storylines would be something like.

1. Polish terrorists place a bomb on the plane.
2. The plane crash in the treetops outside Smolensk without any sign of an explosion.

No part of this even remotely suggests that the plane would have been brought down by Russian terrorists. My guess is that the TNT test suffers from false positives caused by the presence of other reactive compounds containing coal and nitrogen.

[torongill]

Reuters is a perfectly acceptable source, but the fact that Reuters is highlighting the primary source does not reference where it got its information makes the entire story much more dubious.

But maybe looking for Russian motivation is the wrong method. I mean, they were capable of murdering Litvinenko out of nothing but revenge, and didn't even bother trying to cover their tracks with that.

The spy games didn't stop with the end of the cold war and the russians are very well known to bear a grudge. And indeed the most hated guys aren't the ones on the other side, but yours who turn coat. I'm not saying I don't denounce the way he was murdered and for all we know Russia's intelligence might have truly gone asymetrical warfare until they can stabilize and get their act together.

As for whether the FSB blew up the plane, we could ask ourselves why would the Russians need to do that? I mean, unless it was some way of a grand rehearsal to test the matters it doesn't make much sense. Plus, if they wanted to do it and don't get caught, why would they blew the aircraft when it was on its final approach? Why not do it higher-up, so that the evidence is scattered over a much larger area and could be "lost" much more easily?

[justicar5]

Reuters is a perfectly acceptable source, but the fact that Reuters is highlighting the primary source does not reference where it got its information makes the entire story much more dubious.

But maybe looking for Russian motivation is the wrong method. I mean, they were capable of murdering Litvinenko out of nothing but revenge, and didn't even bother trying to cover their tracks with that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...76a_story.html

now they say the earlier story was false. Chemicals where found, but analysis is not complete (so they could be anything, including cooked bits of aircraft). There is a massive difference between killing an exile and killing a foreign head of state, one is nasty, the other is an act of war.

[Stavroforos]

Do any of those sources it does not cite claim that evidence of Russian involvement has been found?

[Condottiere 40K]

Seems unlikely, unless it was meant to send a message, since the dawn of CSI keeping such signs of obvious sabotage hidden would indicate an optimistic mindset.

[Stavroforos]

But why are we expecting Russians behind this at all?

[Diglytron]

Cause they are Communists! And we know that we always have to blame the Communists in the first place. And then, after its very clear they could not have done it, we look at other possible offenders.

[Col. Tartleton]

It seemed suspicious at the time, but I'm skeptical of Russian involvement.

How many Poles does it take to land an airplane? None they all died on impact.

[athanaric]

I'm more inclined to say the EU were behind this

[King Gambrinus]

Why would Russia or the EU do this?

[Father Jack]

I don't think the EU is capable of pulling off an assassination attempt let alone anything Machiavellian.

[Diglytron]

Updated the OP with sources on Kralle18's request. Note tough that the text in the OP is not from this source.

[s.rwitt]

Yeah, I'm not buying it.