The pink letter [SPOILERS]

[Vahir]

A thread where we can discuss the letter that incited Jon to try to march south, and got him assassinated.

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed after seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the king-beyond-the-wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I made him a cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I will have my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I'll cut your bastard heart out and eat it.

Personally, I think it seems very fishy. He mentions that he defeated Stannis, but we know from the preview chapters of book 6 that Stannis is very much alive (Although maybe that was before the battle took place). I also doubt that the entire party Jon sent was killed- characters declared dead in such a fashion usually turned out to have survived. He must have captured at least one of them, though, to know all that information.

[complete noob:(]

A thread where we can discuss the letter that incited Jon to try to march south, and got him assassinated.



Personally, I think it seems very fishy. He mentions that he defeated Stannis, but we know from the preview chapters of book 6 that Stannis is very much alive (Although maybe that was before the battle took place). I also doubt that the entire party Jon sent was killed- characters declared dead in such a fashion usually turned out to have survived. He must have captured at least one of them, though, to know all that information.

I agree.

But you still may want to spoiler the thing about the sixth book, as some people may not even know about the sample chapter, and enter thinking that the only spoilers could be from aDwD

[Bryce Caron]

The letter is false. Me think's. Proof that Ramsay hasnt fought, at least proof for me, is that Ramsay demand's Theon/Reek. A couple of Frey's died as a result of Mors Umber's lads. But aside from that I don't think any battle was joined. Ramsay left with a couple of men to find "Arya" and Theon, so even if Stannis was defeated, he wouldn't know. Raven's wouldn't be able to reach him in the storm, and it would take a week to get out, and attempt to find them, and a week to make it back.

[Ori]

Why does Jon plan to move south anyway? Why not ready his Wildlings and let the Boltons come to him? If Ramsay even reaches him through the snow and cold, Jon can probably beat him with his Wildlings (they would fight much better than a bunch of Northerners who don't want to be there and have frozen their asses off and have no food, especially given Wildlings are more adapted to fighting in deep snow as the Northerners haven't fought in hard winter since ever) and send them running into the cold. Or perhaps draft a few "loyal recruits" into the Night's Watch who'd rather not brave the winter twice.

And then he wouldn't have to take 3/4ths of his strength off the Wall when the Others come. Hell, did he even have a plan for when he moved south? I feel like if he had actually gone through with it, he would've been beaten very easilly.

[deusvult6]

Why does Jon plan to move south anyway? Why not ready his Wildlings and let the Boltons come to him?

It was to save Arya. Why he sent Mance in the first place(already oathbreaking, but done covertly). If he waited, the Boltons might retake her and he wouldn't get a second chance with padfoots.

Jon vs Boltons was discussed on another thread just recently, too.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...8#post12172558

[Hopelessly Hopeless]

Why does Jon plan to move south anyway? Why not ready his Wildlings and let the Boltons come to him? If Ramsay even reaches him through the snow and cold, Jon can probably beat him with his Wildlings (they would fight much better than a bunch of Northerners who don't want to be there and have frozen their asses off and have no food, especially given Wildlings are more adapted to fighting in deep snow as the Northerners haven't fought in hard winter since ever) and send them running into the cold

...

The Northmen are... Northmen... they are used to the snow.

Remember the Asha chapters where Stannis' army marches towards Winterfell? The mountain clansmen managed pretty well (until they ran out of food, that is...)

I personally think the letter is Ramsay's. The discomfit Jon and Clydas felt by holding the letter (just holding the damn thing) is ominously telling of a malevolence that cannot be feigned.

EDIT: Of course, Ramsay is likely lying about the battle. But I wouldn't put it past Ramsay Snow to lie...

[The Guy With No Imagination]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That's why he died.

[Scarecrow]

From what I recall, he was being stabbed when the book ended....Maybe it will open so that somehow he survives in the long run...Thats just me being extremely hopeful however

[Mount Suribachi]

Well, the first thing to do is establish a list of contenders for the authorship, and from there establish who knows what ,and what their motivation might be for writing the letter.

Ramsay Bolton
Roose Bolton
Stannis
Melisandre
Mance Rayder
Wyman Manderly
One of the Freys

I haven't got time to go into detail now, but they should be a good starting point for discussion.

[Mount Suribachi]

Well, the first thing to do is establish a list of contenders for the authorship, and from there establish who knows what ,and what their motivation might be for writing the letter.

Ramsay Bolton
Roose Bolton
Stannis
Melisandre
Mance Rayder
Wyman Manderly
One of the Freys

I haven't got time to go into detail now, but they should be a good starting point for discussion.

So having established what Ramsay may or may not know, we come to the other contenders.

Stannis - through Mel and then Theon would know most if not all of that detail (but if he has Reek, why ask for him back?)
Mel - No way for her to know all that detail, especially the bit about Ramsay losing fArya and Reek. She sees visions (which she is really bad at interpreting), but wouldn't know the name of Reek or his importance to Ramsay
Mance - is an excellent observer with a good eye for detail, he would know all of that.
The Manderlys - wouldn't know the events of Mance/Stannis/Mel on The Wall unless Mance/Stannis told him.
The Freys - would know even less.

Finally, we come to the motivation for the letter. Why would all the non-Boltons want to write this? Do they expect/hope to provoke Jon to march south? Why?

Stannis repeatedly says his real battle is north of the wall, and much as he wants Jon to be Lord of Winterfell, why would he want to march south and leave the wall undefended?

Same goes for Mance, he came south of The Wall to escape the Others, why would he then want the very thing that defends him to be left undefended. The only thing I can think of is that he has been in the Winterfell crypts and found something that concerns Jon - Jon repeatedly dreams of the Winterfell crypts throughout the books, so clearly they have a role to play with him.

The rest - meh.

So I'm personally thinking more and more that the letter was written by Ramsay, but not everything is true. He may have captured Mance or one of his spearwives alive and found out about them helping fArya and Reek escape (perhaps they told Ramsay the plan was to get them to Jon). But the thing about the battle just doesn't ring true. I wonder if the Boltons lost, and now they are cooped up in Winterfell waiting for Stannis to deliver the final blow, and this letter is just the last spiteful act of a doomed man.

[Gallus]

Does anyone apart from the wildlings, men of the NW and Stannis' men know what Mance looks like? I think not...

[Vahir]

Does anyone apart from the wildlings, men of the NW and Stannis' men know what Mance looks like? I think not...

"A naked man has a few secrets, but a flayed man has none."

[Mhaedros]

It's not like it's Mance's first raid south of the wall either. Someone must have seen him before

[Gallus]

It's not like it's Mance's first raid south of the wall either. Someone must have seen him before

He was at Winterfell when King Robert came to visit. No one recognized him. No, I believe the author knew Mance Rayder.

[Prophet1331]

I have two problems with the letter:

1. Why would Ramsay, be willing to leave Jon alone after all of this? I think he would have behaved much more savagely promising a quick death rather than a slow flaying adventure if he gave "Arya" and the rest of the people he wants.

2. Why would Roose let Ramsay write the letter ? Even if Roose died somehow, Ramsay would rather storm to the wall than write letters. I don't think he'd back off carefully choosing not to fight the Watch and the Wildlings together . And with the North somewhat isolated from the rest of the Kingdoms it's not like the word that Ramsay attacked the Watch would reach the rest of the Kingdoms in such a way that it would be believable.

Might as well be written by someone else to make Jon leave the Wall and head south. Maybe even someone from the Watch who wanted Jon to make the ultimate decision prompting the rest of the Watch to turn on him.

[Gallus]

Might as well be written by someone else to make Jon leave the Wall and head south. Maybe even someone from the Watch who wanted Jon to make the ultimate decision prompting the rest of the Watch to turn on him.

That's what I thought at first but notice the word "reek" in the letter? How many people knew that? Certainly no one from NW knew it. It had to be someone from Ramsay's or Stannis' camp... Even better question is, who knew both Mance and Theon? Only someone from Stannis' camp...

[deusvult6]

I don't know, but I think that the fixation on the women that he demands as tribute indicates that Ramsay was the actual author, given his peculiar predilictions and past history. When he sacked Winterfell, he killed all the men but took all the women for his sport. In many cases he has shown a propensity for satisfying his twisted desires over good sense or policy, in fact, in just about everything he does that Daddy isn't forcing him to do.

I imagine he wrote it without any subtle machinations or subterfuge in mind, it was just a feeble attempt to cow Jon and make him scared. Roose says it himself at one point, that Ramsay is all very good at bullying powerless peasant girls but thinks he can treat anyone beneath him the same way and believes that in this manner he can rule the North, which attitude Roose would find hysterical if Ramsay were not his heir.

[Mhaedros]

It might be Stannis himself, trying to get reinforcements, knowing Jon would never come unless his sister was somehow in danger.

[Prophet1331]

Stannis would know about the Reek thing thanks to Theon. But I severely doubt that Stannis would make a false letter to make Jon come south. He is too honorable to start calling Melisandre a whore and so on.

Might it be a wildling ? I don't remember people from south of the wall calling the watch black crows. Also the heart eating thing would fit a wildling.

It might be far-fetched but could it be Melisandre's work ? Looking into the fires could give her the story about Reek.

[Aegon VI]

just putting forward a suggestion but if not Ramsay could it not be Mance himself.
He is at Winterfell hence has access to the paper, ink and seals.
He know about himself obviously, and spent long enough at Winterfell to know about the "Reek" business.
He has proven his skill at blending in at Winterfell before, plus he does have a ruby that changes his appearance - simplying removing this/putting it on will make it prossible to evade the Boltons.
He may have done this to get John to bring the widlings south to him, with supplies, afterall he was their king so they may well have chose to abandon John and join him when they realised he is still alive. Alternatively, he knows enough about the Night's Watch to be able to predict John's end at their hands, perhaps this is good way to encourage fighting between widlings and the watch - a fight the watch is unlikely to win with the present numbers :s
- personally though i do think it is just Ransay being an arse