minipreviews: mercenary, regional and foreign units

[Luciano B]

I decided to start to post some minipreviews covering the mercenary, regional and foreign units which will be present in our mod. Let's start with the Spartans.


SPARTAN HOPLITES

Ekdromoi Hoplitai Lakedaimonoi - Spartan lower class light hoplites (perioikoi, neodamodeis, hypomeiones)


Hoplitai Lakedaimonoi - Spartan lower class hoplites (perioikoi, neodamodeis, hypomeiones)


Hoplitai Spartiatai - Spartan full citizens hoplites.



Models & skins by Luciano B. Thanks to Topus Magnus who provided his wonderful leather "spolas" cuirass used in our "Hoplitai Lakedaimonoi".

[iglauskas]

Nice preview! :original:

Glad that you have decided to post minipreviews instead of that huge ones.

[Sparton Matticus]

I think its a good idea that you are including foriegn mercanaries in this mod. The spartons look cool too, will you be including mercanary generals that can be hired?

[Zenith Darksea]

That's great! But one thing, it's spelt perioikoi.

[KALI]

Excellant stuff Luciano,
wasn't expecting this .....

[Luciano B]

That's great! But one thing, it's spelt perioikoi.

spelling fixed

[Ravenblade]

Great little preview Luciano those are great looking Spartans. An that leather "spolas" cuirass really is fantastic. Looking forward to seeing more

[Idomeneas]

*complainer mode on*

The helmets still need a tweak in shape. Especially the crests are of wrong shape. Spartan hoplites didnt had horizontal crest only the officers. But even if they did the endings wouldnt ''fly'' you will never see a pottery or refference art like this. Spolas is not what you have there. That is a reinforced leather armour in the cut of linothorax. Spolas was the wholebody version of perizoma. I think romans call it subarmalis. It was of thick blanket weave garment most of the times and some times it was of leather. There are potteries indicating that some warriors reinforced it with nails or rings of bronze. In appearence it looked as a reinforced chlamys. You can see a good example at liberated slaves of Argos i had made for hegemonia. So the cuirass you use is no wrong but its not a spolas.

*complainer mode off*

I hope guys you accept constructive critisism.

[FliegerAD]

Could you please name sources (i.e. documents, depictions etc. from this time, not modern literature) for your claims? I am interested in the Spolas myself.

[Luciano B]

*complainer mode on*

The helmets still need a tweak in shape. Especially the crests are of wrong shape. Spartan hoplites didnt had horizontal crest only the officers. But even if they did the endings wouldnt ''fly'' you will never see a pottery or refference art like this. Spolas is not what you have there. That is a reinforced leather armour in the cut of linothorax. Spolas was the wholebody version of perizoma. I think romans call it subarmalis. It was of thick blanket weave garment most of the times and some times it was of leather. There are potteries indicating that some warriors reinforced it with nails or rings of bronze. In appearence it looked as a reinforced chlamys. You can see a good example at liberated slaves of Argos i had made for hegemonia. So the cuirass you use is no wrong but its not a spolas.

*complainer mode off*

I hope guys you accept constructive critisism.

Thanks again for your precise points. Constructive criticism and suggestions are always welcome, of course!

I remember at least an ancient statuette protracting a Spartan warrior with a transverse crest. However, from the sources that I had the chance to read, it is not sure that it was a distinctive feature of the officers; Peter Connolly wrote that the transverse crest may be a sign of rank, but he remains undecided on the matter; since the lack of precise informations on the subject there's a lot of room for personal interpretations, so I assumed that such kind of crest could belong to the elite-status "spartiatai" (in the 4th century the whole number of the "spartiatai" was as low as 1000 men). I don't know exactly what you mean with "flying endings" ...maybe it is referred to the effect of the gravity on the extremities of the crest.

Thanks for the info about the "spolas"; I was able to find only that it is a sort of leather protection. Duncan Head in his "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" adfirms that the "spolas" had the same cut of the "linotorax", but to be sincere, I had no precise knowledge about that matter, if our cuirass is a true "spolas" or a leather covered "linotorax".

[Luciano B]

I think its a good idea that you are including foriegn mercanaries in this mod. The spartons look cool too, will you be including mercanary generals that can be hired?

Rather than the hiring of mercenary generals, I'm thinking something like the "client kingdom" script, which allows to receive periodically or after a specific event a foreign supporting army.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

You see I am right ?

[Idomeneas]

Could you please name sources (i.e. documents, depictions etc. from this time, not modern literature) for your claims? I am interested in the Spolas myself.

My main sources always are pottery and frescoes of the time. I have collected alot of pictures on the subject cause everything i was making for hegemonia had historical basis. To upload all those pics is a pain in the ass for me so sorry if i dont. There are no written refferences as far as i know describing the spolas exactly. It s logical. It would be as a reporter from a warzone to describe how an AK-47 looks like or a bulletproof vest. Conclusions are extracted from pictures

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewfor...464da86ccd9873

in this forum you will find discussions about spolas among others and many pics. Some of them the same with the ones im bored to upload

[FliegerAD]

I have to agree with J.Hoffmann, in this thread, there is no evidence presented for the spolas.
Only very pics of what they present as undergarment, without even discussing the nature of the spolas. After the rejection of these, the thread does not say much about them but defers.

See, I am not exactly a beginner in classic archaeology nor ancient history. So where exactly do you see a spolas? Why do you identify that as spolas? Is that somehow supported by other sources? Duncan Head has presented his case. Although his interpretation is far away from being undisputable, one can follow him. I cannot follow you.

Please don't be lazy, uploading images is easy.

Note there is no canonic interpretation, what a spolas was. Many scholars, many opinions. That is why I am so interested in a clear argumentation. :original:

[Sparton Matticus]

Rather than the hiring of mercenary generals, I'm thinking something like the "client kingdom" script, which allows to receive periodically or after a specific event a foreign supporting army.

so with that client kingdom script, could you also implement an invading army from macedonia? I remember a while back in one of the other threads, about a vote between various factions, the fans of this mod choose one i think. I cant remember which one though. But i liked the idea of a macedonian army invading italy.

And if so, could you do that with maybe a few other client kingdoms that may have invaded italy for one reason or another? or if they leant support to an ally? Of course only if it happened in the time period of this mod.

Im just wondering if that would be possible?

[Idomeneas]

I have to agree with J.Hoffmann, in this thread, there is no evidence presented for the spolas.
Only very pics of what they present as undergarment, without even discussing the nature of the spolas. After the rejection of these, the thread does not say much about them but defers.

See, I am not exactly a beginner in classic archaeology nor ancient history. So where exactly do you see a spolas? Why do you identify that as spolas? Is that somehow supported by other sources? Duncan Head has presented his case. Although his interpretation is far away from being undisputable, one can follow him. I cannot follow you.

Please don't be lazy, uploading images is easy.

Note there is no canonic interpretation, what a spolas was. Many scholars, many opinions. That is why I am so interested in a clear argumentation. :original:

Spolas is considered the wholebody version of perizoma which is a reinforced thigh protection. Either by its thick weaving either by metal foils or sometimes with something that looks as metal squares. There are potery images showing warriors wearing a wholebody version of perizoma. One even carries a boiotic shield. If i have some handy pics i ll upload. Many of them come from a greek book i have with hoplite warfare and armament analysed. A way to identify spolas despite it may have weaved designs on is that it has no drapes while other hoplites that stand by have drapes on their tunic. Its a way to represent artistically the heavier nature of this garment

[FliegerAD]

Spolas is considered the wholebody version of perizoma which is a reinforced thigh protection

Why? How do you know? As you said yourself, written sources don't reveal that. So how do you know that's a spolas?

[Idomeneas]

Why? How do you know? As you said yourself, written sources don't reveal that. So how do you know that's a spolas?

Flieger how do we know anything? We have indications. MANY but many pottery depictions show a heavier garment sometimes studded with foils or with nails (in older depictions) work OVER the chlamys. Scholars as M. Kampouris and yes even Secunda came to the conclusion that this must be the spolas. So i dont understand what you seek, a photo of the time with an arrow pointing and the word spolas on it? I dont think you will find.

We have indications only. The fact is that there was a heavy woolen garment and in pics that show hoplites with no armour this garment seems heavier. Also there is a depiction of an archer propably Teukros wearring one shorter version which seems really flufy. Also in a famous depiction of hoplites preparing for battle 2 of them wear the same which looks like a heavy t-shirt OVER their chlamys.

If you have a better interpretation of what spolas is please share it.

[FliegerAD]

See, I am searching for a convincing argument. Don't take any offense, it's not intended, however what you are doing is called circular argument.
You say a spolas is a full body version of the perizoma and when you see a full body version of the perizoma depicted, you say you see a spolas, because what you see is a full body version of the perizoma. But that’s a circle, not a conclusive argumentation therefore.

An example of how archaeological evidence works: Xenophon (Equ. 12,2f) describes the Boiotian helmet as helmet with unobstructed vision and broad rim since it’s rim overlapped the neck-extension of the cuirass (a Persian piece of equipment not in use by the Greeks, but advocated by Xenophon). So we look for a helmet that fulfills those criteria, moreover a Greek helmet (Boiotian). And we find only one type. So this is most probably the helmet Xenophon talks about. After a check of the dating, we find out that this Helmet indeed belongs to Xenophon’s time, which strengthens the argument.
It's seldom that clear, but hey - who said archaeology is easy?

As a sidenote: if you take a look at the pics in the Roman-army-board thread on the spolas as well as most of the ones, you mentioned (afaik, you did not show them), you will see they predate the literary evidence (Xenophon, Thukydides, Aristophanes), which does not strengthen the argument, but rather weakens it

Duncan Head argued for the spolas on the basis of Xenophon and Thukydides, who report the Spartans armoured with spolades. Contemporary depictions of Spartan spoils show a shoulder piece corselet, which led him to the conclusion that this shoulder piece corselet has to be identified with the spolas. This argumentation, while far away from being undisputable, is not circular.

As I said, I am searching for a better argumentation. That’s why I asked you.

So i dont understand what you seek, a photo of the time with an arrow pointing and the word spolas on it? I dont think you will find.

Correlating sources. I for one try to be serious.

[Idomeneas]

Im sure you already know that περίζωμα means ''the one around the waiste''. So the whole body of it would come with a different name. It wouldnt be called perizoma. Spolas is reffered as a kind of protection/armour. M.Kampouris identified it with the thick tunic shown in many pottery in his book ''Ancient Greek Warriors'' which follows the evolution from heroic to classic age. Sekounda also speculates that its the same thing. In any case spolas doesnt seem to be a leather version of linothorax although sometimes it appears that the pteryges are a part of it when its about bronze cuirass rather than attached to a belt.