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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Oh BBC, oh bad BBC...

    Those who founded the Republic in 1923 might well be turning in their graves: their vision of Turkey as a strictly secularist and nationalist state - not just a separation of state and religion, but also the removal of religion from all aspects of public life - is being questioned.

    In the lead-up to the 89th anniversary of the Turkish Republic on 29 October, political values have never been more openly debated, thanks to a public consultation process, initiated by Turkey's parliament, for a new constitution.

    Generally, society has welcomed the initiative, viewing it as a new political framework, to replace the one that was put in place after the 1980 military coup.

    But the process has opened old wounds, with heated debate on the role of religion in politics and the increasingly conservative nature of public life.

    Secularism is hard to define in Turkey, according to Fadi Hakura of London-based think tank Chatham House. Turkey is constitutionally a secular state, but secularism seems to have taken a unique shape, because of "historical and geographical circumstances in the country".

    For example, while there are clear examples of the symbolic application of secularism in daily life, such as the ban on headscarves in public institutions, there are other aspects of the Turkish state that do not sit with secularism.
    Some critics have pointed to the Directorate of Religious Affairs, and question its existence in a supposedly secular state. The directorate is staffed by public officials and funded from state coffers; but it only offers services to Sunni Muslims - the majority of Turks.

    Minorities such as Christians and Jews, non-Orthodox Alevi Muslims and non-believers do not receive any services from the directorate.

    The public consultation process kicked off discussions on whether Turkey's current form of secularism should be reformed or redefined. This debate is highly significant since it will decide the level at which religion will be able to influence public and political life in the country.

    On this matter, many non-governmental organisations have been vocal.

    The Turkish Industry and Business Association (Tusiad), a leading NGO, has suggested "secularism in Turkey is different from its version in the West because the state has not distanced itself equally from all religions, beliefs and non-belief.

    "The current status of the Directorate of Religious Affairs is against both secularism and the freedom of religion and conscience."
    But my most favored part.

    It is widely believed that the prime minister favours a presidential system with boosted constitutional powers.

    It is thought he may seek an amendment to the constitution and introduce a presidential system. His opponents fear that the change from the current parliamentary system would grant too much power to a man they already accuse of authoritarianism.

    Erdogan Toprak, deputy chairman of the opposition Republican People's Party, has said the prime minister "would like to bring the sultan back" - a reference to the old days of the Ottoman Empire before Turkey become a republic.

    "The AKP aims to take society back and turn it into an ummah [Islamic community]. It wants to reverse the concept of the individual, created by the republic, and turn citizens into subjects," he says.

    But Mr Erdogan believes the country's Islamic beliefs should not be hidden. In an address last month, he said Turkey's balance of democratic values and religious beliefs should be an inspiration to others.

    "In a country where the majority is Muslim, we let democracy rule in its most advanced form and became an example for all Muslim countries," he said.
    Source

    By the way can our Turkish members confirm my suspicion that Erdogan Toprak is a jerk?

    Joking aside, we all know that some of our members have been accusing AKP is trying to kill secularism in Turkey for past few years, and apartly this BBC article supports their thought. However, we also need to remember that AKP's main support comes from the lower class in Turkey, which in other thread about Salafism I already point out the lower class is generally also the most religiously fevered group (this also connects with the Islamphobia in Europe today, but that is another topic). Hence it is possible that AKP, just like American Republican Party, uses religion as more a political tool to attract the voting tickets of lower class, instead actually believing to bring religious teachings into politic. In that case, it brings a few questions:

    1. How far AKP is willing to push for its religious policies?

    2. Does AKP truly believe they need to introduce more religious policies because of religious reasons?

    3. How lower class in Turkey view about secularism?
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    turkey, turkey, turkey...tsk tsk tsk

    look at Turkey, what was it, 2 years ago when Turkey looked set to lead the islamic world as a moderate secular and independant state? now it's starting to look more and more like saudi arabia every day.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    now it's starting to look more and more like saudi arabia every day.
    I wouldn't go that far.

    AKP I'd say is akin to the Christian Democrats of Europe or the Christian Republicans of USA. Doesn't mean it's turning into a Islamist State.
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    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    I wouldn't go that far.

    AKP I'd say is akin to the Christian Democrats of Europe or the Christian Republicans of USA. Doesn't mean it's turning into a Islamist State.
    Uhh...in no way are they merely social conservatives with rationalizations stemming from their religion. Fundamentally there is compatibility issue with a pluralistic society and Government, and a majority muslim nation. If the separation of church and state isnt repaired in Turkey, the Islamists will tear it all down completely.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    Uhh...in no way are they merely social conservatives with rationalizations stemming from their religion. Fundamentally there is compatibility issue with a pluralistic society and Government, and a majority muslim nation. If the separation of church and state isnt repaired in Turkey, the Islamists will tear it all down completely.
    It's the people's choice. If Turkish people don't want secularism and want more religion in the political levels of government, that is their choice to make. With the Islamic World becoming more religious in the coming decade, I won't be surprised if Turkish society does demand this.
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    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    It's the people's choice. If Turkish people don't want secularism and want more religion in the political levels of government, that is their choice to make. With the Islamic World becoming more religious in the coming decade, I won't be surprised if Turkish society does demand this.
    It's not the peoples choice as to whether they can infringe the rights of others or not, actually. Your mob rule ideal of democracy is disgusting.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
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    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
    ― Charlie Chaplin

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    What I am interested is religiously, how far the lower class in Turkey willing to push - perhaps, just like Ottoman, they allow everyone to live freely but only Muslims can control government posts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    The US better start fueling their jets, looks like another invasion in 5, 4, 3..........
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Turkey needs the first amendment.

    Free Practice and No Establishment. I'm not sure how No Practice or Some Establishment are supposed to be Secular.
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Turkey needs the first amendment.

    Free Practice and No Establishment. I'm not sure how No Practice or Some Establishment are supposed to be Secular.
    ARTICLE 2. The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social state governed by the rule of law; bearing in mind the concepts of public peace, national solidarity and justice; respecting human rights; loyal to the nationalism of Atatürk, and based on the fundamental tenets set forth in the Preamble.
    ARTICLE 24. Everyone has the right to freedom of conscience, religious belief and conviction.

    Acts of worship, religious services, and ceremonies shall be conducted freely, provided that they do not violate the provisions of Article 14.

    No one shall be compelled to worship, or to participate in religious ceremonies and rites, to reveal religious beliefs and convictions, or be blamed or accused because of his religious beliefs and convictions.

    Education and instruction in religion and ethics shall be conducted under state supervision and control. Instruction in religious culture and moral education shall be compulsory in the curricula of primary and secondary schools. Other religious education and instruction shall be subject to the individual’s own desire, and in the case of minors, to the request of their legal representatives.

    No one shall be allowed to exploit or abuse religion or religious feelings, or things held sacred by religion, in any manner whatsoever, for the purpose of personal or political influence, or for even partially basing the fundamental, social, economic, political, and legal order of the state on religious tenets.
    Something like this?
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    sevisenturk's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    3. How lower class in Turkey view about secularism?
    there was a research about this recently. it came out that %17 of people wants completely ruled by sharia law and %44 of people thinks quran can be used to effect the law. also %55 of people said that they were okey with islam effecting the politics.

    here is the resource but it's in turkish
    http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.as...CategoryID=100

    so overall we can say that securalism in Turkey is in danger but to be fair secularism in Turkey have always been in danger. i just don't think anyone would try to replace it. at least i hope so.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by sevisenturk View Post
    i just don't think anyone would try to replace it. at least i hope so.
    Lets hope Erdogan is not pushing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    nce_wht_guy's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    You've got to be ing kidding me....
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Well squiggle you appear to have no problem though that if the majority wants secularism, for the ones who dislike secularism to have secularism rubbed in their face

    It's the same think buddy. It really is.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Arcturus Mengsk View Post
    Well squiggle you appear to have no problem though that if the majority wants secularism, for the ones who dislike secularism to have secularism rubbed in their face

    It's the same think buddy. It really is.
    No, because the secularism that exists in Turkey is in order to protect individual rights. You dont have an individual right to force others to conform to your religious beliefs.
    Last edited by Squiggle; October 25, 2012 at 06:51 PM.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
    ~
    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
    ― Charlie Chaplin

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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    No, because the secularism exists in Turkey in order to protect individual rights. You dont have an individual right to force others to conform to your religious beliefs.
    So, when did You make THIS change?
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    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by nce_wht_guy View Post
    So, when did You make THIS change?
    I've never been against the separation of church and state...
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
    ~
    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
    ― Charlie Chaplin

  18. #18
    nce_wht_guy's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    I've never been against the separation of church and state...
    As I recall You've always had a pretty serious sexual obsession with political christianity....
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    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    But he doesn't like it, so even if the majority of another country decides it, he finds it disgusting and wants for his way to pass regardless of what the majority of another country wants, so they are disgusting little creeps for not having the same views with him!
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Secularism in Turkey is in danger!?

    Squiggle's posts in this thread are hitting the very peak of the irony meter. We might have to devise a new one.

    As I recall the greatest threat to civil society and governance in Turkey in recent years was a coup plot by military officers to overthrow the government violently by staging terror attacks on mosques and starting a war with Greece. That is the supposed vanguard of "secularism to protect individual rights" as it has been described. So how exactly did AKP become the boogey man? How strange to see see such criticism leveled at the AKP for daring to open the constitution to revision via a public referendum. You know, the first time the constitution was amended since 1980, when the military forced a constitution on the country after a coup. Yayy secularism and individual rights.

    Well, they're like the Turkish version of the Republican Party so I could see how that is scary to some people.
    Last edited by motiv-8; October 25, 2012 at 11:09 PM.
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