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    Default First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate



    For 90 minutes, a quartet of longer-than-longshot presidential hopefuls reveled in their “debate” in Chicago, available to all the world via C-SPAN, Al Jazeera and the miracle of live-streaming by the sponsoring Free and Equal Elections Foundation and other lesser-known cyber-channels.

    Standing behind lecterns on a Hilton Hotel stage in the hopes of changing as many hearts and minds as possible were Jill Stein of the Green Party, a physician who in 2002 ran against Mitt Romney for the Massachusetts governorship; businessman and two-term New Mexico Republican Gov. Gary Johnson for the Libertarians; the Justice Party’s human rights activist and Democratic two-term Salt Lake City mayor, Rocky Anderson; and Democrat-turned-Republican-turned-independent six-term conservative Virginia Rep. Virgil Goode for the Constitution Party.


    All denounced what Anderson called the Democratic-Republican “duopoly” that is strangling democracy, and the billions in what Stein dubbed “private interest” dollars poisoning the body politic. They answered questions that real voters submitted via social media, from immigration reform (make coming here “as easy as possible” for tax-paying emigres, said Johnson; freeze immigrant green cards until the U.S. jobless rate dips below 5 percent, countered Goode) to legalizing pot (three say yes, Goode says no), to cutting military spending and expanded U.S. global engagement (yes, all around).


    One night after an aggressive President Barack “bayonets and horses” Obama and a more conciliatory Mitt “I agree with the President” Romney finished the last of their three ritualized encounters, so carefully staged by the Commission on Presidential Debates, these outsiders gathered in an alternate political universe to declare that they, not Obama or Romney, deserve to win the White House.


    Though none polls higher than low single digits, Johnson and Goode in particular could tip the balance in very tight state races. Several political pros believe they would siphon more votes from Romney than Obama, most likely in battleground Colorado and New Hampshire.


    Goode, arguably the most fiscally and socially conservative of the lot, vowed to balance the federal budget now, not later; to promote “jobs for American citizens first” and push bills to “get rid of super PACs” and plain old PACs. Johnson, touting his record hiring 1,000 workers in his construction firm and vetoing 750 bills as governor, hewed to the Libertarian line of killing off the IRS, replacing personal and corporate income taxes with a national expenditure tax, getting the U.S. out of Afghanistan and repealing the Patriot Act.


    Stein promoted a “Green New Deal” to create 25 million eco-friendly jobs, Medicare coverage for all and “bailing out students, not Wall Street.” Anderson blasted Democrats and Republicans alike for backing the war on terror because “our Constitution has been shredded” while U.S. citizens have lost basic civil rights.


    Asked what constitutional amendment each would push if they didn’t have to worry about opposition from pesky members of Congress and state legislatures, Goode and Johnson chose term limits for lawmakers. Anderson opted for legal protections for gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people, while Stein cited campaign finance laws that ensure “money is not speech and corporations are not people.”


    For better or worse, none of these candidates has a real chance of winning, but that did not lessen my delight in this event. I’ve been a debate junkie for decades, and was a panelist in the first George Bush-Michael Dukakis face-off while working for the Orlando Sentinel. On Monday, appearing with four other longtime political reporters discussing Campaign 2012, I urged some 500 female high school students to watch this one for a sense of how major issues were being addressed by the Indie Four as opposed to the Big Two.


    The underdog debate moderator was Larry King, CNN’s former talk show titan, who is now working for Ora TV, a subscription Internet channel (which obligingly carried the event). Sporting his trademark red suspenders with a patriotic dark blue shirt — sans jacket, of course — King announced he’d accepted the prime-time gig because he believes “all voices should be heard,” and because years ago “I introduced Ross Perot to the public.” That would be the wealthy Texas businessman who ran as a third-party candidate in 1992 and is credited with taking enough votes from George H.W. Bush to give the election to Democrat Bill Clinton.


    King shared the moderator’s table with Christina Tobin, now 31, who founded the sponsoring nonprofit, ballot-access and political transparency group. She thanked her dad for his inspiration. Turns out she defended 60,000 of his ballot petition signatures when he ran as a Libertarian for lieutenant governor of Illinois in 1992, and has done similar work for insurgents ranging from Ralph Nader to Socialist Party candidates.
    Because there were no rules against cheering, clapping and other human reactions to strongly-held opinions, several lines brought down the house. My personal fave was Gary Johnson’s final appeal for support.


    “Wasting your vote is voting for somebody that you don’t believe in. That’s wasting your vote. I’m asking everybody here, I’m asking everybody watching this nationwide, to waste your vote on me.”
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ential-debate/


    This debate surely isn't as engaging or heated as the mainstream Presidential debates were, but they offered a completely different take on the issues and, I dare say, spoke in a tone that makes a lot more sense to that average voter. All of them uniformly condemned Political Action Committees and special interest money which funded the political positions of Obama and Romney. All of them uniformly condemned across the board military budget increases and support a different foreign policy approach. Two of them specifically called out President Obama on the drone program which kills too many civilians. All but the Constitution Party candidate support decriminalization of marijuana and want to either change the drug war or end it altogether. The most endearing candidates and where most of the focus is ultimately going to be at is the Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson and Green candidate Jill Stein. Both of the candidates support gay marriage and abortion rights, but have different approaches to other social issues like healthcare, environment, and education.

    I encourage you to watch some of it if you want a dissenting opinion on American politics and a much more cordial, civil debate.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  2. #2
    Yoda Twin's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    A constitutional recognition that corporations are not people is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever heard come out of a person's mouth, no surprise that it came out of the mouth of the Green's nominee.
    Minister for Home Affairs of the Commonwealth v Zentai [2012] HCA 28 per Heydon J at [75]

    Analysis should not be diverted by reflections upon the zeal with which the victors at the end of the Second World War punished the defeated for war crimes. The victors were animated by the ideals of the Atlantic Charter and of the United Nations. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was about to peep over the eastern horizon. But first, they wanted a little hanging.

  3. #3

    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda Twin View Post
    A constitutional recognition that corporations are not people is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever heard come out of a person's mouth, no surprise that it came out of the mouth of the Green's nominee.

    how so? It would prevent legal entities from claiming the rights of human beings.

  4. #4
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    It's criminal that they are not debating with the big boys. I would give my left anything to see that.
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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmouth View Post
    It's criminal that they are not debating with the big boys. I would give my left anything to see that.
    One of the reasons why they don't get any votes is because the republicans and democrats, as a united force, own the entire news organization in the US and prevent this intentionally.

    They write the rules for the debates. When it should be the moderators who write them.
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    Dr Zoidberg's Avatar A Medical Corporation
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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    [YOUTUBE]All of them uniformly condemned Political Action Committees and special interest money which funded the political positions of Obama and Romney.
    I know this sounds cynical, because I genuinely want to believe it's not the case, but I can't help but wonder if their dislike/hatred of (Super)PACS is because they don't have them? They'd possibly be sprouting a different line if they had that sort of financial support behind them.
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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Zoidberg View Post
    I know this sounds cynical, because I genuinely want to believe it's not the case, but I can't help but wonder if their dislike/hatred of (Super)PACS is because they don't have them? They'd possibly be sprouting a different line if they had that sort of financial support behind them.
    It's been a typical point of consternation from independents for a long time. Ross Perot argued for their abolition. Even mainstream Republicans and Democrats occasionally campaign against them (Obama did in 2008, despite his entire career being funded by them). SuperPACs are typically corporate funded and libertarians and greens have a common enemy with corporatism - despite them having totally different ways to combat it.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  8. #8

    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Perhaps they would, but that doesn't change the fact the the problems they point out with them are real. It's essentially bribery on a grand scale.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    The only TV station to air the debate was RT. Congratulations, America.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmouth View Post
    It's criminal that they are not debating with the big boys. I would give my left anything to see that.
    This Ben Swann guy is the best thing going on FOX, even if it's just a local station:

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    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by YukonTrooper View Post
    The only TV station to air the debate was RT. Congratulations, Ameria.
    It says right in the article that C-Span was showing it. C-SPAN is a channel on American TV.

  11. #11

    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    After watching the debate (it's actually the only presidential debate from this season that I've watched completely) I was elated to finally see a third-party forum. I would, however, have rather seen a local news anchor moderate than see Larry King. His egotistical ramblings and senile blunders made the overtures to him from the candidates all the more annoying. I appreciated the frank, unprofessional atmosphere of the debate, and candidates who did not need to censor their statements for the sake of pundits and special interest groups.

    Jill Stein/Green Party: I felt she was merely a liberal democrat with accordingly idealist positions. Not particularly unique or electable.

    Virgil Goode/Constitution Party: I felt he was merely a conservative Tea Party Republican with a special disdain for immigrants. His slash-and-burn approach to the federal budget is especially unrealistic. George Wallace meets Know-Nothing Party. Not particularly unique or electable.

    Rocky Anderson/Justice Party: One of only two candidates I thought irreconcilably (meaning unable to co-opt) unique. His positions, some of which were admirable like attacking the Patriot Act, were, as the party name suggests, merely focused on social justice and not really conducive of empirical policy.

    Gary Johnson/Libertarian Party: With charisma and force typical of his party, his positions were classic and I agreed with him the most of the four candidates. He was the other of two candidates I considered truly unique. His approach to the budget was typically dramatic and unrealistic, but overall I felt his general position was solid and workable.

    All the candidates were extremely idealistic (for example, Jill Stein's plan for a "Green New Deal" that would create 25 million jobs and eliminate unemployment), but they can afford to be since they are merely lightning rods for political and social dissidents. I didn't think any of them effectively addressed how to fight the Money Power, which they all seemed to at least recognize as a huge problem. I didn't think any of them presented a feasible debt reduction plan, as Jill Stein seemed to have plans of grandiose social planning while the others just wanted uniform huge cuts. On the whole, of course, I am very happy to see a forum of ideas like this one, and am glad to see candidates like these engaging in the political process. May this be the beginning of a rising popular awareness that might end the perpetual succession of Louis Bonapartes in this country before we all allow Gary Johnson's "conspiratorial" doomsday to become reality.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    Yoda Twin's Avatar Vicarius
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    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    how so? It would prevent legal entities from claiming the rights of human beings.
    Why shouldn't legal entities, which is simply a collection of people, have the same rights as natural persons?

    The idea of corporate personhood is one of the fundamental principles of any common law system, and to change it would have incredible consequences. You like corporations being able to make contract? Not anymore. Like corporations being open to litigation? Not anymore.
    Minister for Home Affairs of the Commonwealth v Zentai [2012] HCA 28 per Heydon J at [75]

    Analysis should not be diverted by reflections upon the zeal with which the victors at the end of the Second World War punished the defeated for war crimes. The victors were animated by the ideals of the Atlantic Charter and of the United Nations. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was about to peep over the eastern horizon. But first, they wanted a little hanging.

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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda Twin View Post
    Why shouldn't legal entities, which is simply a collection of people, have the same rights as natural persons?

    The idea of corporate personhood is one of the fundamental principles of any common law system, and to change it would have incredible consequences. You like corporations being able to make contract? Not anymore. Like corporations being open to litigation? Not anymore.
    I think he's referring the the Citizen's United USSC case, which was basically a ploy to get around campaign finance laws. It's what facilitated the creation of PACs, SuperPACs, and that whole mess. For once, I agree with justicar5's post on this one. Of course businesses and corporations have rights under the law. The law is also what may or may not protect the political process from corporate buy-outs. It's a complex issue.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I think he's referring the the Citizen's United USSC case, which was basically a ploy to get around campaign finance laws. It's what facilitated the creation of PACs, SuperPACs, and that whole mess. For once, I agree with justicar5's post on this one. Of course businesses and corporations have rights under the law. The law is also what may or may not protect the political process from corporate buy-outs. It's a complex issue.
    Stein's other suggestion, that the spending of money is not considered speech, would equally solve the issue without the overburdensome consequences.
    Minister for Home Affairs of the Commonwealth v Zentai [2012] HCA 28 per Heydon J at [75]

    Analysis should not be diverted by reflections upon the zeal with which the victors at the end of the Second World War punished the defeated for war crimes. The victors were animated by the ideals of the Atlantic Charter and of the United Nations. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was about to peep over the eastern horizon. But first, they wanted a little hanging.

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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda Twin View Post
    Stein's other suggestion, that the spending of money is not considered speech, would equally solve the issue without the overburdensome consequences.
    I see your point. So, you merely criticize the idea of a Constitutional amendment that would overturn Citizen's United as overly complex; not the entire idea of overturning or counteracting the ruling? I tend to agree.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    Yoda Twin's Avatar Vicarius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I see your point. So, you merely criticize the idea of a Constitutional amendment that would overturn Citizen's United as overly complex; not the entire idea of overturning or counteracting the ruling? I tend to agree.
    Personally, I don't have a problem with the Citizen's United decision, the US claimed to be a bastion of free speech, yet there's a problem with corporations exercising that right? The consequences of the ruling might be a bit unfair, but if the US wants to display itself as this bastion, they are consequences the US should endure.

    If one of the amendments proposed by Stein had to be implemented, the obvious choice is limiting the definition of speech by excluding the spending of money from such a definition. Removing corporate personhood is not feasible, it would shatter the business world.
    Minister for Home Affairs of the Commonwealth v Zentai [2012] HCA 28 per Heydon J at [75]

    Analysis should not be diverted by reflections upon the zeal with which the victors at the end of the Second World War punished the defeated for war crimes. The victors were animated by the ideals of the Atlantic Charter and of the United Nations. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was about to peep over the eastern horizon. But first, they wanted a little hanging.

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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda Twin View Post
    Personally, I don't have a problem with the Citizen's United decision, the US claimed to be a bastion of free speech, yet there's a problem with corporations exercising that right? The consequences of the ruling might be a bit unfair, but if the US wants to display itself as this bastion, they are consequences the US should endure.

    If one of the amendments proposed by Stein had to be implemented, the obvious choice is limiting the definition of speech by excluding the spending of money from such a definition. Removing corporate personhood is not feasible, it would shatter the business world.
    I look at it from the perspective that some things are not for sale. One cannot, for example, legally purchase a komodo dragon without special permits and regulations. I see campaign finance the same way. An important aspect of liberty is stability and sustainability. The citizenry must guard its fundamental right to Liberty whilst also thinking rationally about the pragmatic aspect of things. As Hamilton said, more tyrants have arisen under the pretense of "liberty" than autocracy.

    The Citizen's United case was a final nail in the coffin of the US political system because it is basically nothing more than a sham to get around campaign finance. Now, he with the most disposable income has the means if not the personal ability to become a virtual puppet master of politics; more than ever before. I have great respect for the USSC and stand by her decisions whether I agree or not, but would like to see the Citizen's United case come up for review in the near future.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    Yoda Twin's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I look at it from the perspective that some things are not for sale. One cannot, for example, legally purchase a komodo dragon without special permits and regulations. I see campaign finance the same way. An important aspect of liberty is stability and sustainability. The citizenry must guard its fundamental right to Liberty whilst also thinking rationally about the pragmatic aspect of things. As Hamilton said, more tyrants have arisen under the pretense of "liberty" than autocracy.

    The Citizen's United case was a final nail in the coffin of the US political system because it is basically nothing more than a sham to get around campaign finance. Now, he with the most disposable income has the means if not the personal ability to become a virtual puppet master of politics; more than ever before. I have great respect for the USSC and stand by her decisions whether I agree or not, but would like to see the Citizen's United case come up for review in the near future.
    This is getting slightly off-topic, but until we've been told to move on, I think this discussion can continue.

    It is a bit disingenuous for myself to be discussing this issue I must admit, as I generally take certain aspects of my own country's constitutional law (Australia) and intertwine them into that of the US, without giving sufficient thought as to whether the vast differences in our governmental models means a different conclusion can be drawn. I make note of this because, political discussion here in Australia has continually been noted as a special form of communication and as a result, is constitutionally protected, unlike non-political forms of communication (though I must stress that, the definition of whether something is considered political is incredibly broad). Now, is this the case within the United States? Despite the differences in our systems of government, the US still contains representative elements, and as such, I believe speech that is political in nature must be protected more vigorously than non-political speech, as the former is a must for a representative style of government to succeed.

    On the idea that liberty must have a pragmatic element to it, what then of the political views of extremists and expressions of those views? Would it not be equally as dangerous to the electorate's liberty if an extremist party were able to gain significant grounds within the legislative? I admit this is more than far-fetched, however should the likelihood of such an event occurring be taken into consideration?
    Minister for Home Affairs of the Commonwealth v Zentai [2012] HCA 28 per Heydon J at [75]

    Analysis should not be diverted by reflections upon the zeal with which the victors at the end of the Second World War punished the defeated for war crimes. The victors were animated by the ideals of the Atlantic Charter and of the United Nations. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was about to peep over the eastern horizon. But first, they wanted a little hanging.

  19. #19

    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda Twin View Post
    Personally, I don't have a problem with the Citizen's United decision, the US claimed to be a bastion of free speech, yet there's a problem with corporations exercising that right? The consequences of the ruling might be a bit unfair, but if the US wants to display itself as this bastion, they are consequences the US should endure.

    If one of the amendments proposed by Stein had to be implemented, the obvious choice is limiting the definition of speech by excluding the spending of money from such a definition. Removing corporate personhood is not feasible, it would shatter the business world.

    corporate personhood (as you describe it, a legal entity capable of making contracts) isn't what I have a problem with, it is that since roughly the 1870s, corporate entities have been claiming more rights, usually citing the 14th amendment (which was designed to stop people disenfranchising ex-slaves), so when a corporation starts claiming freedom of speech to hide dodgy advertising practices, or tries (and so far fails but give it time) to claim the right not to self incriminate.

    There should be a clear, legal difference between a flesh and blood person, and a legal entity. Since alot of UK law ends up de facto if not du jure following US corporate law, this is actually important to me.

    Corporate entities should only be 'people' as far as contract law, that far and no further.

    Also it would be hilarious is you guys had the same campaign funding restrictions we do, http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...gn-expenditure


    At the very least candidates should have to announce and advertise who they took donations over $5k off. ($5k being the limit at which I see a 'normal' but active voter, of some means, crosses the line into applying direct pressure.)
    Last edited by justicar5; October 26, 2012 at 09:27 AM.

  20. #20
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: First Time - 2012 Third Party Presidential Debate

    I like Virgil Goode because he's so steadfast he doesn't seem to want to be elected. Goode for him.

    At the very least Johnson should have been allowed in the real debate.

    A debate should have 4-6 people.

    The Presidential Debates are rigged, just like the movie award shows. It's just the different Hollywood studios giving each other awards so they can say they're award winning.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; October 26, 2012 at 05:55 AM.
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