Staying in Formation

[rue_the_day]

I think this has been touched on in other threads, but I thought it deserved some discussion on its own. One of my pet peeves about Rome I was that the Roman Legions had these wonderful weapons designed for a very specific form of formation combat, but just ran at the enemy in a big mob and hacked away (this obviously didn't stop me from spending many hours on the game, and enjoying the heck of out it, but still...)

Picking up a gladius and scuta (shield) and hacking away at the enemy in a mob doesn't give you any significant advantage over picking up any number of a slew of weapons utilized by the scores of nations Rome pummeled for hundreds of years. What gave Rome the advantage was Rome's superior organization, training/discipline, and tactical use of formation. Hell, one on one combat with a weapon specifically designed for use in a formation often has the effect of putting a combatant at a disadvantage (imagine trying to fight effectively with a phalanx spear and shield in single combat...good freaking luck with that.)

While the Roman infantry utilized shorter range combat weapons (the gladius rather than the spear), the same premise holds true--just running up to the enemy in a mob and hacking away (a la Rome I) with the gladius rather than an axe or another kind of sword or short spear or what have you shouldn't give the Roman legions ANY advantage over nations.

Staying in formation, rotating between hastati, principe, and triarii, and rotating men from the front of formation to the back of the formation at set intervals all served to keep constant and powerful pressure at the front of the formation at any given time. The enemy would tire (as the same people on the enemy line would be fighting the entire time), and the enemy would break under the weight of fresh Romans constantly being rotated to the front. THIS is why Rome was better...not because they ran up to the enemy in a mob and hacked away with a gladius.

Likewise, I would personally like to see, if no other nations, at least Romans staying in formation during combat.

[Zimmy]

They do stay in formation while in combat. But obviously clicking behind the enemy to charge through will leave a few stranded to be gutted with spears and swords.

[XxAndrewxX2525]

They do stay in formation while in combat. But obviously clicking behind the enemy to charge through will leave a few stranded to be gutted with spears and swords.

What game are you playing? Only time they'd stay in formation is if you had them on 'defend' mode, which was bad and pointless for most battles.

[Zimmy]

Uh, Medieval 2 with mods? I've always seen units stay in formation when fighting.

[Kabeloko]

Hey, welcome to the forum!

So, im not sure i get it, are you proposing to give an core ability for elite roman units to fight in perfect formation to represent their discipline and fighting style in that time? Like a trait for the unit, is that it?

[rue_the_day]

Hey, welcome to the forum!

So, im not sure i get it, are you proposing to give an core ability for elite roman units to fight in perfect formation to represent their discipline and fighting style in that time? Like a trait for the unit, is that it?

I think this clip from HBO's Rome does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqzDrFX-cNs&noredirect=1

I know, as some have pointed out, that formations don't stay "perfect." However, there is a significant advantage to staying in line and rotating to keep fresh units up front. The character who runs up and tries to fight everyone on his own (who gets clobbered in the clip) is what Rome I characters always did.

I want the Roman legions in Rome II (the trained ones--not necessarily the lower level town watches and such) to stay in line and fight as a cohesive unit (like in the clip).

[Kissaki]

I think this clip from HBO's Rome does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqzDrFX-cNs&noredirect=1

I know, as some have pointed out, that formations don't stay "perfect." However, there is a significant advantage to staying in line and rotating to keep fresh units up front. The character who runs up and tries to fight everyone on his own (who gets clobbered in the clip) is what Rome I characters always did.

I want the Roman legions in Rome II (the trained ones--not necessarily the lower level town watches and such) to stay in line and fight as a cohesive unit (like in the clip).

In that clip it works like clockwork -- I do not believe that's how it would work in a real situation, and I do not believe that is how they did it either. I see rotation working only under the following situations, or similar:

1) The person in the front is wounded and the man next in line trades places with him
2) they rotate when not engaged in combat

I can see 1) working, but this is pure speculation on my part. Now, 2) does work, and the Romans weren't the only ones to do it. Rotating like they did in HBO's Rome has numerous problems that discipline simply couldn't compensate for:

1) How do you ensure that the signal reaches everyone? A simple flute signal would easily be missed in the din of battle, and when locked in combat with the enemy in front of you you might not notice the movement of your comrades in time.
2) What if your engagement with the enemy in front of you prevents you from moving at the exact same time as the others? It's not like everyone synchronizes their attacks and defense. Perhaps you are unable to comply when the order is given, even if you heard the signal.
3) Rotating like that in the midst of fighting makes you very vulnerable. The signal to rotate would easily become the enemy's signal to rush.
4) When rotating, you cannot advance. This means that if you are in the process of advancing, the advance would temporarily come to a grinding halt, and this may be enough.

The character who runs up and tries to fight everyone on his own (who gets clobbered in the clip) is what Rome I characters always did.

Strange, I never saw that -- and I never used the Defend mode.

[torongill]

There's practically no such thing as a perfect formation in real combat. It's not a parade ground, you're trying to murder the bastards, not show them how good you can keep a rank and file. Formations lose their perfect shape when they start killing and dying and pushing forward. However, in RTW the real problem was the limit of the engine. There wasn't any real advantage in keeping a battle line intact, that's why you had units maneuvering all over the place and attacking one another from all kinds of crazy angles.