UK faces punishment for breaching EU wastewater treatment law

[hellheaven1987]

But since Scotland is going to leave soon and the breaches happened only in England, may be EU should punish England alone?

The UK faces fines for breaching EU law on water treatment after plants in northern England and in London dumped raw sewage into waterways.

That is the outcome of a ruling by the European Court of Justice, which has yet to decide what the penalty will be.

Under an EU directive introduced in 1991, Britain was obliged to meet new standards for treating waste water.

The UK said that it had already taken steps to fix the problem and that it was complying with EU regulations.

However, the court in Luxembourg rejected its argument.

"The United Kingdom has failed to fulfil its obligations under (the) directive," the court said.

It said that plants in Whitburn in northern England and in London had dumped sewage in local waterways.

London's sewer system, much of which dates back to Victorian times, discharges raw waste into the River Thames when rainfall overwhelms the 19th Century tunnels.

"So far as concerns the treatment plants of the collecting system for London... their capacity is sufficient in dry weather, but not sufficient in the slightest in the case of rainfall," the court added.

"A member state may not plead practical or administrative difficulties in order to justify non-compliance with the obligations and time limits laid down by a directive.

"The same holds true of financial difficulties, which it is for the member states to overcome by adopting appropriate measures," it said.

London has commissioned a £4bn tunnel project, dubbed the "super-sewer", underneath the Thames, to solve the capacity problem.

But local residents and politicians have raised objections to the cost, which would drive up water bills.

In 2010, the European Commission asked the European Court of Justice to impose a lump sum fine of 15 million euros on Belgium for water violations.

Source

Wait a minute, joking aside, why EU has power to punish its members for... doing bad sewage job? I mean, if EU has free time to aim for an European universal wastewater treatment standard, then why it cannot even set up a European universal economical standard? Seriously, I am confused now, why EU seems quite centralized in some (unimportant) issues, but it cannot centralize important issues?

But who knows what Europeans are thinking about...

[Adar]

Wait a minute, joking aside, why EU has power to punish its members for... doing bad sewage job? I mean, if EU has free time to aim for an European universal wastewater treatment standard, then why it cannot even set up a European universal economical standard? Seriously, I am confused now, why EU seems quite centralized in some (unimportant) issues, but it cannot centralize important issues?

But who knows what Europeans are thinking about...

I am in two minds about this kind of EU interference.

Pro: Environmental regulations often have an impact on several nations. Good examples are the Baltic Sea and the Rhine where several nations are dependent on everyone taking environmental responsibility. Using the EU to harmonise environmental laws mean that we can manage these natural resources more efficiently.

Cons: The European Commission haven't exactly been very good at creating these harmonised laws. A good example are the EU funds for environmentally friendly farming. These restrictions have been a disaster as farming in Northern Europe is far different from continental Europe as the regulations state that you should rotate three crops despite a two crop system being the best in the north. Likewise grazing areas in Sweden are often semi-wooden which is also a prohibited by the regulations which are written for deforested areas. The ban of light bulbs are another issue as it mean that we are reintroducing mercury which have been banned for 10 or 15 years. The initial ban on using mercury was however very good

[AqD]

Who would receive those fine money?

[Thorn777]

But since Scotland is going to leave soon and the breaches happened only in England, may be EU should punish England alone?



Source

Wait a minute, joking aside, why EU has power to punish its members for... doing bad sewage job? I mean, if EU has free time to aim for an European universal wastewater treatment standard, then why it cannot even set up a European universal economical standard? Seriously, I am confused now, why EU seems quite centralized in some (unimportant) issues, but it cannot centralize important issues?

But who knows what Europeans are thinking about...

Because one is easy and the other damn near impossible.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I have limited qualms with legislation, no matter what the source, that prevents treatment plants for dumping raw sewage into water courses.

[Father Jack]

Belgium was fined €15 million in 2010 for doing something similar. With a bit of luck it may persuade the government to update the victorian sewage system.

[Vizsla]

Parliament is sovereign.
Fines imposed by an unelected supranational body because of non compliance with another unelected supranational body’s diktats are democratically illegitimate. The fine goes to an unelected supranational body. This amounts to taxation without representation.
Stealing our taxes as a fine makes less money to sort the problem out. Clearly the aim is not to help. The aim is to take more of our money.
Other countries just ignore ECJ rulings or don’t bother to pay up. The British are a bunch of law abiding saps. Suckers.

If the government absolutely have to pay up then they should do what I have always done with fines from other countries: accidentally on purpose arse up the currency conversion in your favour.
Either that or, since money goes both ways, they should agree to cancel it off something they’re paying to you and then factor it in multiple times in different ways in both directions so no one can work out what the feck is going on and you’re quids in. The commission hasn’t had its accounts signed off by an auditor in decades because they’re so unbelievably corrupt and dishonest, so even if they work it out they won’t want to put their accounts into the media spotlight.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Parliament is sovereign.
Fines imposed by an unelected supranational body because of non compliance with another unelected supranational body’s diktats are democratically illegitimate. The fine goes to an unelected supranational body. This amounts to taxation without representation.
Stealing our taxes as a fine makes less money to sort the problem out. Clearly the aim is not to help. The aim is to take more of our money.
Other countries just ignore ECJ rulings or don’t bother to pay up. The British are a bunch of law abiding saps. Suckers.

You ruin your credibility with easily disprovable false claims. There are plenty of things in the EU to be skeptical about, this is not one of them, and your most of your post is simply false.

By unelected supranational body, you mean the European parliament, directly elected by EU citizens in regular elections? By other supranational unelected body, do you mean the European Court of Justice, whose judges are appointed by elected national governments, the very ones you are correctly claiming have ultimate sovereignty? There is a British judge on the court which found Britain guilty and will decide the fine.

[Vizsla]

You ruin your credibility with easily disprovable false claims. There are plenty of things in the EU to be skeptical about, this is not one of them, and your most of your post is simply false.

Examples of factual errors please.
I’ll admit to exaggerating, slightly, the amount of time that has passed since auditors started refusing to sign off on the commission’s accounts because of blatant fraud.

By unelected supranational body, you mean the European parliament, directly elected by EU citizens in regular elections? By other supranational unelected body, do you mean the European Court of Justice, whose judges are appointed by elected national governments, the very ones you are correctly claiming have ultimate sovereignty? There is a British judge on the court which found Britain guilty and will decide the fine.

Nope.

The EU parliament is irrelevant to this discussion. It is elected. Unfortunately it can only vote on laws put before it by the unelected European commission, so it is just irrelevant in a general way - and always will be.

What happened here is this: The European Commission (unelected) took the UK government (elected) to court in the ECJ (unelected). The fine imposed by the ECJ goes to the Commission.

The existence of a British judge on the ECJ has no bearing on whether it is acceptable for it pass judgement on my elected government, or me.
Against the proposition the other judges do not know British law, come from different legal systems that work in a very different way, and many would not qualify to become judges in this country.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

What happened here is this: The European Commission (unelected) took the UK government (elected)

The UK government appoints the European commission.

to court in the ECJ (unelected).

Also appointed by the UK government.

Against the proposition the other judges do not know British law

They don't need ot know British law. Britain has voluntarily signed up to not pollute or be fined, expecting to get fined if it didn't follow through, and that is what has happened. This is Britain's choice.

come from different legal systems that work in a very different way, and many would not qualify to become judges in this country.

They are all experts enough to make the bar in any country easily.

[Lord Thesaurian]

It's moments like these that almost make me proud to claim Britain as a social and cultural ancestor. God save the Queen and Her Majesty's Government! Down with the EU!

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's moments like these that almost make me proud to claim Britain as a social and cultural ancestor. God save the Queen and Her Majesty's Government! Down with the EU!

It makes you feel proud the UK is going to be fined for pumping raw sewage into the water system? What?

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

It makes you feel proud the UK is going to be fined for pumping raw sewage into the water system? What?

UK does not merely pollute its water system, it gives the finger to the man by doing so. Don't let them bring you down, Brits!

Parliament is sovereign.
Fines imposed by an unelected supranational body because of non compliance with another unelected supranational body’s diktats are democratically illegitimate. The fine goes to an unelected supranational body. This amounts to taxation without representation.

EU's legislation is formulated by representatives handpicked by the elected governments of the states, decided upon by the council of the elected prime ministers of the states and ratified by the elected members of the European parliament. You have voluntarily submitted yourselves to its jurisdiction, like everybody else. If you don't like being in the EU, vote for the parties that will take you out next time, nobody forces you to be a member.

[Slaytaninc]

EU's legislation is formulated by representatives handpicked by the elected governments of the states, decided upon by the council of the elected prime ministers of the states and ratified by the elected members of the European parliament. You have voluntarily submitted yourselves to its jurisdiction, like everybody else. If you don't like being in the EU, vote for the parties that will take you out next time, nobody forces you to be a member.

Which frankly is the entire point. By complaining about the EU, he hopes that this will sway more people to be Euroskeptics and support those exact policies.

[Lord Thesaurian]

It makes you feel proud the UK is going to be fined for pumping raw sewage into the water system? What?

No, I am merely happy to see that Britain is continuing her attitude of defiance toward the EU. If Britain has water pollution problems, it's a British affair, not the prerogative of some globalist cabal.

[removeduser_487563287433]

No, I am merely happy to see that Britain is continuing her attitude of defiance toward the EU. If Britain has water pollution problems, it's a British affair, not the prerogative of some globalist cabal.

Um. The UK agreed something, failed to deliver, and will now pay a fine. What defiance?

[Lord Thesaurian]

Um. The UK agreed something, failed to deliver, and will now pay a fine. What defiance?

Defiance?

At any time the UK can leave the EU, and it would still be able to remain in the common market. It chooses to have the ECJ superior to it though. And I think that's a good thing.

Yes, it always puzzles me that the UK joined the EU in the first place, seeing as how Britain seems to historically maintain a pronounced separatism from the Continent. In any case, I hope Britain's rather obstructionist position in the EU will help to bring the latter down and end this farce of an experiment in globalism. I would have thought history, especially that of the early, pre-republican US, would have shown that one cannot maintain a central federation when the latter is composed of sovereign states. For any successful federation to be maintained, their must be federal authority supreme to that of the members. I would have thought this obvious......

[removeduser_4536284751384]

No, I am merely happy to see that Britain is continuing her attitude of defiance toward the EU. If Britain has water pollution problems, it's a British affair, not the prerogative of some globalist cabal.

Defiance?

At any time the UK can leave the EU, and it would still be able to remain in the common market. It chooses to have the ECJ superior to it though. And I think that's a good thing.

[Xraider]

the buttmad of British eurosceptics has risen by 300% after this.

[Col. Tartleton]

Expected British Response: "We acknowledge you believe we did something wrong, however as it doesn't concern you in the slightest way, we will not be paying you the fines you believe we now owe you. Good day sir."