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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default What kind of superpower China would be?

    A good BBC article.

    A common reaction to the idea of China as a superpower is that it will be like the US - except worse. Worse because it is not a democracy, it has a communist government and because its people are not like us. I guess that gives some the jitters.

    In fact we should not expect China to behave in the manner of the US. It will be very different. And nor should we assume that it will necessarily be worse.

    Why will it be different? Because its history is so different. Articles about China's growing involvement with Africa - in terms of trade and investment - often talk of the "new colonialism".

    Beware historical ignorance. China has never colonised any overseas territories. Overseas empires were a European speciality, with Japan getting in on the act for a short while too.

    China could have colonised South East Asia, for example, in the early 15th century. It had the resources, it had enormous ships, many times bigger than anything Europe possessed at the time. But it didn't.

    That is not to say China ignored its neighbours. On the contrary. For many, many centuries it dominated them - as a result of its sheer size and far more advanced level of development. China's relationship with them was based not on colonialism but what we now know as the tributary system. It neither ruled them nor occupied them. Rather, in return for access to the Chinese market and various forms of protection, the rulers of tribute states were required to give gifts - literally tribute - to the Emperor as a symbolic acknowledgement of China's superiority.

    The tributary system comprised what we know today as East Asia, home to one-third of the world's population. It stretched from Japan and Korea to the Malay Peninsula and parts of Indonesia.

    It proved remarkably stable, lasting for at least 2,000 years and only coming to an end around 1900.
    The West and China share an important characteristic - they both believe they are universal, a model for all others. But the way they have interpreted this in practice has been entirely different. For Europe, and latterly the US, it meant projecting their power around the world, most spectacularly during the heyday of colonialism in the 19th and first half of the 20th Century, when a large part of the world found itself under European rule.

    We governed from afar, exported our ways of doing things, imposed our languages, our education, our religion and much else besides.

    The Chinese, in contrast, preferred to stay at home. They believed the Middle Kingdom, the old name for China, literally meaning the centre of the world, was the highest form of civilisation. So why step outside into ever darkening shades of barbarianism?

    The seven great voyages of Zheng He between 1405 and 1433 around the East and South China Seas and across the Indian Ocean as far as East Africa left no permanent mark - they were about demonstrating the glory of the Middle Kingdom rather than a desire to conquer. Those who left China to settle in South East Asia were seen as leaving civilisation and deserving of no support or protection by the Emperor.

    Compare that with the way in which Britain and France celebrated the heroes of their colonial expansion. Our cities are littered with statues and street names in their memory.
    There is another reason why the Chinese have tended to stay at home. The country is huge, diverse - and extremely difficult to govern. The overwhelming preoccupation of its rulers down the ages has been how to maintain order and stability and thereby retain power. It remains just as true today.

    Rather than look outwards, China's leaders look inwards. The exception was China's own continental land mass. Its expansion, rather than to the four corners of the world, was confined to its own continent.

    The most dramatic example was the westward march of the Qing dynasty from the mid-17th Century which, in a series of bloody and brutal wars, doubled the physical size of China.
    Europe, I would argue, has historically been an extremely aggressive and expansionist continent. Its own history has been characterised by seemingly endless wars which were then transplanted onto a global stage during the era of colonial expansion and world war. Military might, the projection of power around the world, and the desire if necessary by force to impose our way of life on others, have been fundamental to the European story.

    And it is not difficult to see how the US - itself the product of European overseas expansion and settlement - inherited these characteristics from us.

    China won't be like this. It is not in its DNA. Its rulers will be far less interested in seeking to dominate the rest of the world and far more concerned with keeping themselves in power. That is what ruling a country containing a fifth of the world's population obliges. When Xi Jinping becomes Chinese leader next month, his in-tray, as with Hu Jintao before him, will be overwhelmingly filled with domestic rather than foreign issues.

    In time China will certainly come to enjoy huge global power. It will be exercised, however, in a rather different way.

    The iconic form of western power has been military. Extraordinarily, the US today accounts for around half of global defence expenditure. Before, European colonial expansion was only possible because its fighting capacity was massively superior to that of the rest of the world.

    That kind of overweening military power has never really been a Chinese characteristic.

    Instead the quintessential forms of Chinese power will be economic and cultural. Over time, China's economic strength - given the size of its population - will be gigantic, far greater than that of the US at its zenith. Already, even at its present low level of development, China is the main trading partner of a multitude of countries around the world. And with economic power will come commensurate political power and influence. China will, if it wishes, be able to bend many other countries to its will.

    Cultural power will also be important to the Chinese. Theirs is a remarkable civilisation - having enjoyed a place in the sun not once but several times. During the Tang dynasty, for instance, from the 7th to the 10th Century, and most remarkably during the Song dynasty from the 10th to the 13th Century, with major advances in a host of fields from biology and hydraulic engineering to architecture, medicine, mathematics and cartography.

    The Chinese are enormously proud of their historical achievements. They believe that theirs is the greatest civilisation there has ever been.

    They have a strong sense of their own superiority rooted in history. They have long had a hierarchical view of the world, with China at the top. And the rise of China is likely to accentuate these views.
    Source

    A great article that point out how Chinese viewed and reacted with the world in past, how it is different than West and how it would affect our future. The article has specially pointed out that to Chinese, peacefully co-exist with its neighbours, using economical and cultural way, is always the methods that prefers in Chinese culture - which, unlike West, which values military domination over others as priority. It also points out that, despite there were opportunities, Chinese generally did not go expansion and colonization unlike West, and even less to use violence for land and wealth. In the end, the author concludes that instead seeing another US-like superpower, the new superpower China would go different direction - prefers to peacefully coexist with other members in the world using economical and cultural methods, instead choosing military path to dominate others.

    That, of course, would be nice to hear. However, that is assumed when both sides are willing to coexist peacefully and equally - which is always impossible when one side decides to go hawk.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    I would hardly call what amounts to giant protection racket to be "peacefully co-exist with its neighbors, using economical and cultural way,", and the Vietnamese would probably agree considering their history with China. I would also argue that the reason China was never obsessed with military domination of its neighbors was that they were large enough to dominate neighbors without requiring such focused efforts and never faced the pressure of equal or greater powers threatening their boarders as the Kingdoms of Europe did. That could also be argued to be the reason for purely continental expansion, they could easily dominate on the continent and if their was more land to expand into there why would they bother taking the harder rout of intercontinental expansion. And again I wouldn't call doubling the size of your already large nation through conquering neighbors "peacefully co-exist with its neighbors, using economical and cultural way". For Europeans intercontinental was the way to go because it was a continent of several major powers who were relatively evenly matched and so colonization was the path of least resistance.

    That said the article does make some interesting points, and I am not saying that a Chinese superpower would be worse than the U.S, but I'm not saying it wouldn't either.
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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Why does this article remind me so much of undergraduate papers?

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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    Why does this article remind me so much of undergraduate papers?
    My thoughts exactly, I found the article to be childish, really.

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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    A great article that point out how Chinese viewed and reacted with the world in past, how it is different than West and how it would affect our future. The article has specially pointed out that to Chinese, peacefully co-exist with its neighbours, using economical and cultural way, is always the methods that prefers in Chinese culture - which, unlike West, which values military domination over others as priority. It also points out that, despite there were opportunities, Chinese generally did not go expansion and colonization unlike West, and even less to use violence for land and wealth. In the end, the author concludes that instead seeing another US-like superpower, the new superpower China would go different direction - prefers to peacefully coexist with other members in the world using economical and cultural methods, instead choosing military path to dominate others.
    The later peaceful trend started by Ming dynasty is NOT shared by early dynasties. A good example is the Goguryeo–Tang War in which Tang dynasty was obviously the aggressor. How else do you think China get its territory today? By teaching Confucianism?

    BTW the Ming dynasty was founded by a backward peasant, in sharp contrast to the founders of all other dynasties. It's also the dynasty in which the society started to become more restrict, and development on all aspects stopped. They even banned sea trades! Peace only came after the empire decided to cut off all connections to the world.
    Last edited by AqD; October 21, 2012 at 02:48 AM.

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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    The later peaceful trend started by Ming dynasty is NOT shared by early dynasties. A good example is the Goguryeo–Tang War in which Tang dynasty was obviously the aggressor.
    We can, however, claims early Tang rulers were half-barbarians hence their nature is undestandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    How else do you think China get its territory today? By teaching Confucianism?
    By teaching Confucianism and let barbarians did the dirty jobs?
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    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    A good BBC article.

    That, of course, would be nice to hear. However, that is assumed when both sides are willing to coexist peacefully and equally - which is always impossible when one side decides to go hawk.
    You like the article only because it's a Western outlet reaffirming your biases and prejudices.

  8. #8

    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Well, as far as Peaceful goes Shi Huagdi scuppers that one, not to mention the warring states period. Frankly The Emperor Kangxi was no saint either. However i'm inclined to agree with the article based purely on the fact that China has too many people to be truly obsessed with Foreign policy, as a are many Europeans and Americans.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    So the difference, if China becomes the top dog, will be that the world will bend to the superpower's will through economic pressure rather than threats of military enforcement. And this is improvement? I would still have a democratic and open society lead the world, though, rather than a regime that has no respect for human, social and political rights whatsoever, is not accountable to anyone and does not understand or value the concept of individualism.

    The iconic form of western power has been military.
    And what sets it apart from other powers throughout the ages is the formulation of a political and economic model that has engineered the greatest prosperity for the greatest number of people that ever occured in history.
    Last edited by Timoleon of Korinthos; October 21, 2012 at 09:15 AM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    A great article that point out how Chinese viewed and reacted with the world in past, how it is different than West and how it would affect our future. The article has specially pointed out that to Chinese, peacefully co-exist with its neighbours, using economical and cultural way, is always the methods that prefers in Chinese culture - which, unlike West, which values military domination over others as priority. It also points out that, despite there were opportunities, Chinese generally did not go expansion and colonization unlike West, and even less to use violence for land and wealth. In the end, the author concludes that instead seeing another US-like superpower, the new superpower China would go different direction - prefers to peacefully coexist with other members in the world using economical and cultural methods, instead choosing military path to dominate others.

    That, of course, would be nice to hear. However, that is assumed when both sides are willing to coexist peacefully and equally - which is always impossible when one side decides to go hawk.
    ....Seems to ignore the fact that China has undertaken a massive military build-up in the last decade, sought to militarily conquer neighboring nations, achieved its current geographic size through military conquest, and has spent most of its extremely long recorded history in internal or external warfare.

    China has also always been governed by some form of authoritarianism and thus is home to the accompanying culture of force, not peace; and I wouldn't call economic strong-arming and power play "peaceful coexistence." Seems like someone has been reading too many news articles and too few books of actual research and history.....
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  11. #11

    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    China has historically frequently used military force as a foreign policy tool. Anything else is revisionism.

  12. #12

    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    China has historically frequently used military force as a foreign policy tool. Anything else is revisionism.
    Just since the rise of the CCP

    Tibet-Conquered by Communist China
    Xinjiang-Also conquered by Communist China
    Korea-invaded to drive the UN forces out of North Korea
    Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia-Helped supply communist/regimes and rebels directly and through facilitating Soviet goods via China
    Vietnam 1979-Invaded Vietnam in response to Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia

    Did I miss any?
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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    Just since the rise of the CCP

    Tibet-Conquered by Communist China
    Xinjiang-Also conquered by Communist China
    Korea-invaded to drive the UN forces out of North Korea
    Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia-Helped supply communist/regimes and rebels directly and through facilitating Soviet goods via China
    Vietnam 1979-Invaded Vietnam in response to Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia

    Did I miss any?
    Sino-Indian War of 1962
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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    Just since the rise of the CCP

    Tibet-Conquered by Communist China
    Xinjiang-Also conquered by Communist China
    Korea-invaded to drive the UN forces out of North Korea
    Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia-Helped supply communist/regimes and rebels directly and through facilitating Soviet goods via China
    Vietnam 1979-Invaded Vietnam in response to Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia

    Did I miss any?
    China claim on the South China Sea, I am pretty sure the other ASEAN countries really look forward to experiencing more CCP douchebaggery.
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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    Tibet-Conquered by Communist China

    Xinjiang-Also conquered by Communist China
    I wonder how you "conquer" someone who was not independent internationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    Korea-invaded to drive the UN forces out of North Korea
    So you agree US' goal during Korean War was to conquer North Korea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia-Helped supply communist/regimes and rebels directly and through facilitating Soviet goods via China

    Vietnam 1979-Invaded Vietnam in response to Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia
    And the goal was to conquer them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    China claim on the South China Sea, I am pretty sure the other ASEAN countries really look forward to experiencing more CCP douchebaggery.
    I bet Palestinians are welcoming Israel's colonization scheme on their homeland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I bet Palestinians are welcoming Israel's colonization scheme on their homeland.
    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Did someone die in cyber attacks? Or may be it is better to use drones terrorizing foreign civilians physically every day?
    Can an OP take his own thread off topic? Obviously you are trying to deflect rather legitimate criticism of China, its not working btw.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    From the comments on reddit -

    I can't decide if this is propaganda or naivete. His whole premise is that China will never be hostile to it's neighbors because 600 years ago when it had the means to, it wasn't. Here they've gained some economic prosperity and they're already claimed virtually the entire South China Sea on flimsy grounds. China's "DNA" my ass.
    The military premise made by the article makes no sense. It is like saying: "Since Japan had no foreign contact during the 1700s, we can say it will never try to conquer other countries."
    agree with you his analysis of chinese development is wrong and very ignorant. he doesn't even knows what "China" exactly means. Mao "liberated" more land in Mongolia East-Turkestan, Tibet, Manchuria and south west than Hitler was dreaming to take in Europe and everyone ignored that.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Previous dynasties fell due to the fact that they were both failed to adapt and possibly the ruling castes degenerated into corruption and tyranny, not a fate the CCP plan to follow.

    Just because the official position of the PRC is that they plan on a peaceful rise, doesn't mean they can't lean on their neighbours militarily, if diplomacy and economic blackmail doesn't bring the desired results.

    There are two aspects that the current and probable future Mandarins will insist on, that China be given respect, and that they aren't averse to having vassals, possibly the prospect of which may have been one of the reasons that swayed the Burmese junta's decision to court the West.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    China is also one of the most aggressive countries in the world when it comes to intelligence and counter-intelligence agencies and its aggressive nature in the world of cyber attacks is well known as well.

  20. #20
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: What kind of superpower China would be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    China is also one of the most aggressive countries in the world when it comes to intelligence and counter-intelligence agencies and its aggressive nature in the world of cyber attacks is well known as well.
    Did someone die in cyber attacks? Or may be it is better to use drones terrorizing foreign civilians physically every day?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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