Shield Wall Vs Loose formations against Archers

[Dragonchampion]

Which is more powerful? What causes the least casualties? Should I use shield wall liberally against everything?

[Swad]

Generally I wouldn't use shield wall against everything.

In response to your archer question, I would say leave the unit in loose formation, because even if the shieldwall gives a defence bonus getting hit less has its obvious advantage of not having to calculate any dmg at all.

For shield walls I find their use a little strange. The only use for them I find is when I really, really need to hold a line still, like at a gate. When I fight outnumbered battles against Harad and Mordor, I find they use a tactic of simply ordering their units to try and run past my unit holding the line. While it may induce some casualties on their end, it does have the effect of stretching out my unit like a soap bubble around their forces decreasing their effectiveness overall as their numbers are now stretched and have to face multiple enemies at once.

I think this would be a legitimate use for the shield wall, though I never had a unit that had it in this same situation.

[Incomitatus]

Shieldwall gives a small bonus to defence to the front of the unit, but by making the unit so tightly compacted it seems to me to make it more vulnerable to ranged attacks.

Where shieldwall shines is that it increases the mass of the unit. You can't see the value of a unit's mass on it's info card in the game, but the more mass a unit has compared to the unit is attacking the more easily it can push into the enemy formation and break it apart. Cavalry has a high mass, for example, and so do trolls and the Trollmen of Harad. Some other elite units and pikemen have slightly higher masses than average.

However, an average mass unit, in shieldwall, gains a serious bonus (higher mass units also do, of course). A shieldwall unit can resist having it's formation broken if it is attacked, and if attacking it can fairly easily push through most other units. One devastating use of shieldwall is to order a unit in shieldwall to run to a point behind the enemy line (you may have to re-issue the order after it makes contact with an enemy unit) and then when it is in the middle of an enemy unit, order it to attack that unit instead. The effect is... satisfying.

[mondpeiler]

in fact shieldwall should give a bonus against archers, too.
the overlapping shields protect the soldiers behind better from everything thrown at them.
but I don't know, if that's the case ingame.
generally, I made good experience with this fomation.

[ppetrus]

That is not exactly the truth that shieldwalled units are more easily hit. Shield wall makes soldiers more tight but if you stretch the line to the maximum, the line will be very thin. Hence, arrows falling before and behind the formation will miss. Vulnerability in that case depends on a shooting angle, I believe.

[beermugcarl]

you take very little damage from missiles while in shield wall, practically nothing infact, though it does depend on your defensive shield points.

the thing with shield wall is its fantastic because it nigh removes damage taken from the front (that includes melee) but triples damage from sides and behind which means you need to have a very thin line for it too work effectively which is counter-intuitive for most MED players

but yeah for instance dwarfs can actually go into shield wall and take javelins without any casualties because they have armour as well

[Dragonchampion]

but yeah for instance dwarfs can actually go into shield wall and take javelins without any casualties because they have armour as well

Bingo. That's EXACTLY what I needed to hear. Thanks for that extremely useful information; now I can kill those pesky armor-defying javelin throwers.

[Mhaedros]

Uhm, javelins (all except Snaga's I think) have the ap attribute, which means they pierce armor. They are often more effective against armored units than crappy, leather-clad ones

[Incomitatus]

Uhm, javelins (all except Snaga's I think) have the ap attribute, which means they pierce armor. They are often more effective against armored units than crappy, leather-clad ones

Not quite. AP only reduces the target's armour rating by 50%. An armoured unit with half its armour ignored is still often better protected than a "crappy, leather-clad" one (which would also lose half its armour protection if the javelins were thrown at it). So a javelin unit will usually be able to inflict more casualties on the "crappy, leather-clad" unit.

However, it is most efficient to use the javelins against the armoured unit, since they will do better than non-AP weapons against that target and some other unit can probably handle the 'crappy, leather-clad' one well enough.

[Ultra123]

agree, the snaga are better off throwing spears at those dwarfs then say dale cavalry. shield wall is effective against arrows but cannot stand up to a sustained barrage if the archers are modest at their job (uruks archers and up). shield wall is defo by far better then loose formation against arrows 100% in my campaigns, and iv had a few..

[Incomitatus]

Hmmm. See, I've never noticed a difference with being shot at, but then I tend to use shieldwall on offense and it's entirely possible that, like spears' defence against cavalry, the unit has to be stationary to get the benefit. If I wasn't trying to get the Character Development portion of my guide done, I'd go do some tests...

[k/t]

Multitask.

[Incomitatus]

Multitask.

I am: I'm also creating marketing fliers and trying to keep my cat entertained!

[lawrengary]

I would say leave the unit in loose formation, because even if the shieldwall gives a defence bonus getting hit less has

[Dwarven Berserker]

I've done a bit of quick testing. I let a unit of Ithilien rangers expend all their ammunition at a unit of eldar spearmen. One time with the spearmen in shieldwall, and the other time in loose formation. (both times the distance between the rangers and spearmen was the same, of course) These are the results:

Shield wall:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Loose formation:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As expected, the spearmen take fewer casualties in loose formation. So yes, if you're showered by arrows, spread out!

[Dwarven Berserker]

Hmm, I was going to test the preformance of a unit in tight formation as well, and in the progress I noticed something:

Two tests of eldar spearmen in tight formation. Note how they take just as many casualties as the spearmen in shieldwall.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But that's not the remarkable thing, take a look at this:

Eldar spearmen in shieldwall, in RAINY CONDITIONS.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Eldar spearmen in tight formation, in RAINY CONDITIONS.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

See how big the difference is between the casualties in good and bad weather? I knew weather would infuence archers, but not by THIS much. So if you're using a lot of archers: Avoid bad weather!

[Incomitatus]

Yep, bad weather reduces accuracy. You'd see less of a penalty at closer ranges. If you have to fight with archers in rain, make it a knifefight.

And I'm not surprised by your results, Dwarven Bersker, it fits my experience: Shieldwall is (very) useful in melee, but vulnerable to arrow due to the tight formation making misses unlikely. Only use shieldwall when in contact with the enemy.

Great job! +rep

[Withwnar]

Yep, bad weather reduces accuracy.

... and the heavier the rain the worse they are. Some tests here.

[Dragonchampion]

I'd give rep for that post if I could, but unfortunately I need another, like, 25 posts. :/

But thanks fo taking the time to figure it out!

[beermugcarl]

could you redo the tests using dwarf warriors... i would but away from the computer... and i could have sworn it did better... thank you for showing me the error of my ways i suppose...