Improved Family Tree

[Arcani 4 Ever]

So the best family tree was the Rome Total War family tree. You could choose heir, adopt generals into the family. And the family tree was complex enough for you to see your whole family. Not just the main family.

Medieval II was the same, except the most important thing was removed *choosing heir* and the fact that only princesses from the main family were able to marry.

Empire and Napoleon didnt have a family tree. I didnt like that.

Shogun 2 brought it back, but although it added special places for generals, as well as goverment positions. The family tree lost depth and complexity. Only the main family tree was shown, but what really made it a turn off was that diseased members of the family were not shown.

Although im sure that the Roman Republic Campaign will lack a family tree *unless CA brings back the Julii, Brutii and Scipii*, once you choose the Empire path you should have a family tree. The other factions campaigns should have complex family trees as well.

Something i loved was seeing my family tree on RTW 150 years after starting the game and see it through from the founder till the newest member. It was something that really made me care about family members and generals.

And also the family tree should be complex on TW-R II. After all during the roman republic time, there was a lot of adoptions among the pater familias and a lot of marriage deals. Plus those families kept track of their own ancestors.

The Shogun 2 family tree, to be honest, sucked. Once your daimyo died, his brothers would become simple generals. And the heir could adopt his own uncle *that was pretty ridiculous.*

So what do you guys think? Should a better, more complex family tree should be implemented on Rome II or at least use the same family tree system RTW had?

[Jazx]

I think old RTW system family tree would be cool to see. Im not a huge fan of family trees but it is cool to have it

[Strategos Autokrator]

R2TW should definitely have a family tree.

You should also have the ability to marry generals into your extended family or simply get an offer from the "game" whenever that girl comes into age. Not just your daughters.

By this you should be able to marry your cousins. If they happen to be closer than 4th cousins there should be a chance children of that couple will be of bad health/retarded etc. That way you will be able to exterminate everyone outside your own royal family once you become emperor and consolidate the power in a new dynasty and prevent the family to grow out of proportions.

I will also see a distinction between adopted sons and the rest of the family. Maybe a red frame around the picture.

Political positions should have its own "family tree" to keep track. In this hierarchy your own family should be represented along with others outside your family. Build those alliances and get loyalty to take control.....

[Steward Denethor II]

Yeah Definitely we need a better family tree system, because the ability to adopt uncles was retarded. And in the old games the family tree became so cluttered and useless, especially with adoptions.

[Ichon]

It would be nice especially in this era if family tree played a much larger role. Family in Rome was first followed by tribe and state in the early eras and then family and state in later eras but family remained first. Especially with elections to office for many types of government while tribal confederations and monarchies would also be able to use family trees.

For example with the rivalries being between families in Rome one family might have one of its members elected Consul which would make that guy both a commanding general and put him in as a minister in the government tab. After serving for some period of turns there is a new election and the previous Consul doesn't retire from political life but may go into the Senate or assume another office in the government, meanwhile his nephew wins election as a tribune which allow him to command some military forces but on his own his own inborn merits rather than with the power of the office of Consul adding command and troop refill. A rival family that year wins the Consul office and reshuffles some government posts kicking out their rivals from the non-elected offices and raising unrest and the antipathy of the other family and its allies.

If the family members had traits which made them more or less skilled at certain things... it could get very interesting. So if the family with the first Consul has several members skilled in military matters but not in diplomacy nor economics they would have available skilled generals but diplomatic relations and the cost to build and recruit might increase unless they appointed other families to power which sometimes might result in new alliances and other times lead to the downfall of a family if a family skilled in war rules in a time of peace they are judged less on war than on how well their other political offices are doing. If they keep those offices within the family public sentiment might decrease but family prestige is maintained, if they turn those offices over to another family skilled in that area public sentiment rises but the other families prestige rises instead. With a dozen families competing and only the top 3-4 able to get the higher offices like Consul there is a huge amount of intrigue possible. A young handome scion member of one family disgracing the daughter of another family leads to a drop in that families prestige and the next election goes to the handsome guys family and increases the rivalry between the 2 families. Once a rivalry between 2 families reaches a certain point there is a rebellion with the family holding more offices considered the 'state' while the rebels would be the family with fewer offices. If the rebels are defeated their family disappears and a new family enters contention.

This could work in tribal confederations as well. Monarchies could be similar but with only 1 leading family and 2 close supporters with the other 9 families looking for outside support or weakness in the rulers to take over rule.

When a family has a strong member and enough prestige they can attempt to 'Cross the Rubicon' and create an Empire. The families with whom there is little rivalry and who have low prestige and who are thus politically weak might not resist, the families with some prestige can be tempted with bribes of money or political offices, while the rivals will oppose the attempt and civil war will erupt. So ruling well and managing tensions with rivals might result in a relatively bloodless coup while creating strong rivals could make an epic civil war.

On higher difficulties rivalry points are magnified so it is more difficult to manage political tensions and medium prestige families demand more bribes to join the coup, etc.

If a general loses a battle his family drops in prestige but might also drop slightly in rivalry with another family who excels in military matters. If a general wins a battle his family gains in prestige but might increase rivalry with another family who considers themselves good in military affairs.

Similar for conducting diplomacy or economic decisions. Some families might have an affinity for a certain faction, so if Rome is fighting Carthage and wants peace with a Greek state having a minister/officeholder who likes Greek culture might raise relations. On the other hand the naval war with Carthage is draining resources and the leading family of Rome lacks someone experienced in the economy, if they continue with their own family holding office the coffers stay low but family prestige is maintained- if they appoint another family who is skilled in economics- that family benefits from a gain in prestige and a future rival is possibly strengthened.

[Rijul.J.Ballal]

i agree completely its really cool to see how far you have gotten through the generation

[UsulDaNeriak]

The family tree should be much more complex than the RTW 1 one. In the roman era family was everything. Family and client status was one of the key-factors for promotion. Roman careers stretched over generations. The future success of your family was more important, than just your position alone. And family means much more than sons, daughters and their husbands. Adoption was very usual and also the major clients have been an integrated part of the family. Also the word amicus meant much more than today. often the bigger part of heritages were given to non-blood relatives (clients). This is why Augustus' death tax, which assesed just this (non-blood) part of relatives was so successful.

And there always have been more than one important family competing about the power in senate and magistrate or later about the favour of the princeps. If politics really has a more important meaning in RTW 2, then i expect a much more complex family tree, because politics in Rome was all about family and clients.

[Pinarius]

I made some family trees from Imperial times (see attached files, most of these names lead to biographical articles). Maybe it's better to have just one, very large tree with families, who are allies or rivals of the leading characters.

[Påsan]

Family trees are a downright disgusting way of simplifying history, and should have no pressence in RTW2 whatsoever. The Roman Republic was not ruled by a "family" but by a collection of patrician families struggling for power through the senate. And you are not playing one of these families, which would mean restricting the players powers to next to nothing every time you are not elected consul, you are playing Rome as a faction, and therefore you should be largely above the petty family squabbles and political maneuvering unless they evolve into civil war. ¨

In Crusader Kings II you can talk of family trees, and that is because you had hundreds of them, and you were playing in Feudal Europe as a ruler, a time dominated by personal relations and family dynastic rule, which was an entirely different system than would have been found in Rome.

Basically: One family did not rule Rome, and it would be entirely fiction to try to represent it as such.

[Arcani 4 Ever]

Family trees are a downright disgusting way of simplifying history, and should have no pressence in RTW2 whatsoever. The Roman Republic was not ruled by a "family" but by a collection of patrician families struggling for power through the senate. And you are not playing one of these families, which would mean restricting the players powers to next to nothing every time you are not elected consul, you are playing Rome as a faction, and therefore you should be largely above the petty family squabbles and political maneuvering unless they evolve into civil war. ¨

In Crusader Kings II you can talk of family trees, and that is because you had hundreds of them, and you were playing in Feudal Europe as a ruler, a time dominated by personal relations and family dynastic rule, which was an entirely different system than would have been found in Rome.

Basically: One family did not rule Rome, and it would be entirely fiction to try to represent it as such.

I did said that the Roman Republic Campaign shouldnt have a family tree, unless CA brings back the Scipii, Julii and Brutii *which i dont think they will*.

But you seem to have forgotten that there will be other factions besides Rome and most of those factions were ruled by kings, emperors, warlords, etc... Few examples are, the Ptolemaic Dynasty, The Seleucid Empire, Carthage, Gauls, and a lot more factions.

And once you reach The Empire Campaign, a family tree should be implemented on the Romans as well. After all im sure there wont be as much backstabbing, treason and murdering on the game as there was on real life Rome.

I mean if im playing the Ptolemaic Dynasty i will go full incest! Not only it is wrong *which makes it funnier*, but its also historically accurate.

[Ichon]

Family trees are a downright disgusting way of simplifying history, and should have no pressence in RTW2 whatsoever. The Roman Republic was not ruled by a "family" but by a collection of patrician families struggling for power through the senate. And you are not playing one of these families, which would mean restricting the players powers to next to nothing every time you are not elected consul, you are playing Rome as a faction, and therefore you should be largely above the petty family squabbles and political maneuvering unless they evolve into civil war. ¨

In Crusader Kings II you can talk of family trees, and that is because you had hundreds of them, and you were playing in Feudal Europe as a ruler, a time dominated by personal relations and family dynastic rule, which was an entirely different system than would have been found in Rome.

Basically: One family did not rule Rome, and it would be entirely fiction to try to represent it as such.

Practically everything in any game is a downright disgusting way of simplifying history. If you have any knowledge of Roman history though I just can't see how you can say family politics have no place in the game? Scipio family had 15 consuls over the course of the Punic wars, but Licinia, Valeria, Marcia, some few more but relatively few families repeatedly sent members to high positions in the era RTW2 covers.

Julio-Claudians are the most famous and were the first family of the Empire. There were several other prominent families that held the highest offices of Roman government repeatedly or ensured their clients came into office or established political alliances between families when a family did not have a senator of age to take office along the path of the cursus honorum though sometimes those rules were ignored that happened rarely.

Having more family tree used to represent the struggle you speak of seems a good way to captivate interest in generals even if they aren't the brightest administrator and a poor general but might still take office or obtain an interesting marriage. It wouldn't be about playing a single family until the time came for Empire but under the Republic managing the families to prevent strife while under an Empire managing the branches of the ruling family and the remaining families of Senatorial rank.

[Pinarius]

Practically everything in any game is a downright disgusting way of simplifying history. If you have any knowledge of Roman history though I just can't see how you can say family politics have no place in the game? Scipio family had 15 consuls over the course of the Punic wars, but Licinia, Valeria, Marcia, some few more but relatively few families repeatedly sent members to high positions in the era RTW2 covers.

Good examples, Ichon. One could compare them with the Kennedy-family:
http://static3.businessinsider.com/i...tical-tree.jpg

[roarer]

Family trees are a downright disgusting way of simplifying history, and should have no pressence in RTW2 whatsoever. The Roman Republic was not ruled by a "family" but by a collection of patrician families struggling for power through the senate. And you are not playing one of these families, which would mean restricting the players powers to next to nothing every time you are not elected consul, you are playing Rome as a faction, and therefore you should be largely above the petty family squabbles and political maneuvering unless they evolve into civil war. ¨

In Crusader Kings II you can talk of family trees, and that is because you had hundreds of them, and you were playing in Feudal Europe as a ruler, a time dominated by personal relations and family dynastic rule, which was an entirely different system than would have been found in Rome.

Basically: One family did not rule Rome, and it would be entirely fiction to try to represent it as such.

I do think family tree has it place in R2TW, though not in the way shown in RTW. CA has already hinted there will be more internal struggle and conflict within a faction, so a family tree can help us understand which character is on which side and how far he is from line of succession of properties and lands. It can help us understand the internal structure of our faction, as long as it show us multiple families which are in power.

[Rhaegar1]

I'd say that in an empire or kingdom you should have one family and you can position members of this family in governmental positions (including the heir position). If you don't have a usefull family member you can also choose to adopt some suitable candidate, or let the senate fill in that position how they see fit. If unrest with senate/nobles or with the plebians gets to high, a rebellion could pop up, perhaps with an assasination attempt on your leader and you can choose to support a pretender from a different family or even someone who wants to restore or form a republic.

In a republic/confederacy/league we could have 5 families shown or so, with only it's 5 most influencial members visible for each family. Those members are (randomely) elected/positioned in the governmental position. By getting elected or doing some good stuff while they are in office (which you actually are doing of course) they gain influence in the senate (or councel of nobles or something like that) for their family and popularity with the plebians for their family. When one family gains enough respect in both senate/nobles and popularity with the plebians and the family leader has some good attributes and has some governmental position he will cross the rubicon and you can choose to support him for emperor or defeat him and stay republic.

Next to that, several governmental positions should be available in the game (consuls could be attached to a legion for bonus, preators should give management bonusses to a city etc.) aside from these fixed positions, gouvenor positions should be added when you own enough regions in a larger area aside from the area where you capital is in (for example when you own 7 regions in gaul you should gain the postion of govenour of gaul that appears in you governmental tab and can be filled with a family member.

[Luminous Smurf]

I love the family trees in the total war series and i really do hope the next game has them too, being able to see the family trees of other factions would be great too.

[SODK]

Maybe you could have different family trees aligned to certian characters such as generals for example. So you can click on one of you general and get a grasp of who he is related to, maybe when his children will be ready for service, if he has a brother in the senate or something?

[RexImperator]

I want every member of the family tree to be marriageable, unlike in M2TW where only faction leaders and heirs could marry princesses.

It should be a relativly simple matter of opening the diplomacy menu, selecting a marriage option and then choosing the family member you want and which member on the opposing side you want them to marry. The closer a family member is to the faction leader the harder it would be to get them to agree without a really sweet deal. Distant cousins would marry your generals with little difficulty and would really jump at the chance to marry a faction heir. A princess of the blood would be much harder to get unless your candidate is very desirable or they are under extreme threat (last city under siege).

Hellenistic monarchies would be pretty open to marrying anyone of a similar station, Carthaginians would be fairly open to marrying anyone if they get something good out of it, Romans would be hesitant to marry anyone but Italians, barbarians are open to almost anyone they are on good terms with.

If on the other hand you don't want to deal with dynastic marriages candidates are brought before you similar to in previous games from among your own faction (though not on your family tree until after the wedding).

[Timotheus]

I am sure of that Rome 2 will have improved family tree due to increased manner of politic and family power!

[Påsan]

I did say Roma had patrician family struggles, did I not?

However I retain my stance that playing the game from the view of a "family" is wrong. Even for the dynastic nations, because dynasties change but that should not necessarily mean you loose the game, and not all generals, or even the majority of them or even a small fraction would be part of the family of the ruling class.

If anything, the system from empire is more accurate, which separate generals and nobility. I'd be okay with a family tree which represented the king and his family in your faction, but I don't want to play the game from the rulers perspective, with the family tree being all important and all the characters, governors and generals all being part of it.

The most glaring mistake: In medieval 2, all generals represented in feudal Holy Roman Empire was related to the family of the "Emperor" Which is a absolutely ridiculous concept for the German medieval state. Family trees in this regard is flawed.

[RexImperator]

I did say Roma had patrician family struggles, did I not?

However I retain my stance that playing the game from the view of a "family" is wrong. Even for the dynastic nations, because dynasties change but that should not necessarily mean you loose the game, and not all generals, or even the majority of them or even a small fraction would be part of the family of the ruling class.

If anything, the system from empire is more accurate, which separate generals and nobility. I'd be okay with a family tree which represented the king and his family in your faction, but I don't want to play the game from the rulers perspective, with the family tree being all important and all the characters, governors and generals all being part of it.

The most glaring mistake: In medieval 2, all generals represented in feudal Holy Roman Empire was related to the family of the "Emperor" Which is a absolutely ridiculous concept for the German medieval state. Family trees in this regard is flawed.

By that same token, if you are playing as the state and not the family that rules it should you not use every option at your command? Dynastic marriages were a common feature of diplomacy between the hellenistic states as well as the Carthaginians and the tribes in their sphere of influence.

Take the revolt of Antiochus Hierax for example or the revolt of Achaeus, both were members of the Seleucid royal house. I want to be able to control men like this before they revolt, I want to know their advantages and disadvantages, their ticks, who their related so that if they revolt I know whether to side with them or their rivals. Is there a straightforward and streamlined way of doing that without the use of a family tree?