Elaborate cheating, or just unbalanced retainers?

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

After a few weeks gap during which some new DLC came out, I've been losing a lot more battles than usual. I've managed to get over the "Yari Cavalry/Yari Ki are OP" problem, but I'm finding it sheer insanity and utterly frustrating when I field a solid, balanced army with high powered veterans suddenly crumble beneath an enemy army of regulars or seeing Swordsmen lose to Naginata or Spearmen veterans with names like "assman"

And it's not just a matter of losing over a period of time in a stand-up fight, but it's seeing my units utterly CRUMBLE within SECONDS, or units with HEAVY ARMOR being ripped apart easy as grass against non-veterans. Or even worse, having my heavy veterans CHARGE an enemy line, then break down broken and SHATTERED against REGULARS within seconds.


This has gotten to a point of sheer that it would seem I'd be better off deleting all my veterans and just spamming No Dachi and Yari Cavalry with retainers like World Weary.

[TheCrazyCat]

share your solid balanced army please

[Thorien Kell]

Talking about S2 or FotS? You have your "show unit cards" enabled, so you're sure your vets are stronger /have better stats then your enemy? Do you use leadership gen? Do you have your units properly vetted? Are you familiar with push through mechanics /exploit and can you tell if it's been used on you? What is your idea of "balanced build"? Doy you use meatshield? Do you have 'incriminated' replays? Share some more information if you want feedback to be of any use.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

I have both games, btu this happens disproportionately wiht my Shogun 2 avatar. I re-distributed his skill points so he is a full Leader, including giving the entire army a morale boost simply by existing. My veteran archers get points put into Reload skill and Accuracy primarily, with non-clan points put into MIssile Damage, fatigue resistance, or skills like Whistling Arrows. I've named my primary Katana and Naginata units after Roman units (Hastati, Principes, Triarii) so in honor of them I hugely boost their charge and attack and morale. I have the Ikko-Ikki and Hattori and some other DLC packs, so I have the Katana Hero (Sandor Clegane), the Yari Hero (Ser Gregor Clegane), Bow Hero (Ser Brynden Tully), and Naginata Monk Hero (The Unsullied), and while they do just fine on their own, the normal units always seem to either fail them, or they just don't kill quickly enough. Ser Brynden in particular, despite the huge range, seems next to useless due simply to how few archers are in his group.

[Thorien Kell]

I think I remember your army from MM.
First, lose bows, take one unit of good bows(like daikyu) but only on certain maps. On rush maps -smaller, more flat, they won't justify the cost. Otherwise or if uncertain take 1 unit of bow cav.
Forget heroes, they are not useful in competitive environment, use them vs weak players of for fun. Keep them non upgraded, some are not that bad (tetsubo, katana cav) but never take more then 1.
Forget bow hero, that unit is particularly useless.
Bring 7-8 good units of properly vetted infantry. Use propper retainers for them. Yaigyu and BM for mostly sword core.
Give your core units upgrades only in attack and defense, perhaps morale but nothing more. Keep your core at level 6 preferably (2attack, 1 defense, 1 morale, 2 clan attack for swords, other way around for nagis)
Use at least 1 morale retainer for samurai army, like shiryaboshi or infantry officer.
Use at least 1 unit of matchlocks.

That's it for starters.
Read link under my sig if you haven't already.

[TheCrazyCat]

I think I remember your army from MM.
First, lose bows, take one unit of good bows(like daikyu) but only on certain maps. On rush maps -smaller, more flat, they won't justify the cost. Otherwise or if uncertain take 1 unit of bow cav.
Forget heroes, they are not useful in competitive environment, use them vs weak players of for fun. Keep them non upgraded, some are not that bad (tetsubo, katana cav) but never take more then 1.
Forget bow hero, that unit is particularly useless.
Bring 7-8 good units of properly vetted infantry. Use propper retainers for them. Yaigyu and BM for mostly sword core.
Give your core units upgrades only in attack and defense, perhaps morale but nothing more. Keep your core at level 6 preferably (2attack, 1 defense, 1 morale, 2 clan attack for swords, other way around for nagis)
Use at least 1 morale retainer for samurai army, like shiryaboshi or infantry officer.
Use at least 1 unit of matchlocks.

That's it for starters.
Read link under my sig if you haven't already.

everything bolded is completely OPTIONAL.
from my experience, you need about 4-5 dependable melee infantry, Ill name some cheap ones
lvl 4 yari sams(2attack 2 def) with skilled weapon smith, yari master, famous armory and renyos.
lvl 5 yari sams(2attack 3 def) with skilled weapon smith and yari master and famous armory.
lvl 2 nodachis(2 attack) with/without blademaster and yagyu.
lvl 2 nagi monks(2 attack) with Mikoshi Shrine
lvl 4 nagi monks(2 attack 2 def) with Mikoshi Shrine, Way of Ikko Ikki and Renyos
lvl 4 nagi sams(2 attack 2 def) with famous armor and perhaps Renyos
lvl 3 yari ash(2 attack 1 morale) with Way of Ikko, Skilled weapon smith, yari master and perhaps rice paddies or shirabuyashi dancer.



From experience, in 1v1s, 2 vanilla bow cav do fine if your into skirmishing. Bow sams with 175 range are pretty dependable if your opponent isnt a stud and fields a huge melee rush on a flat map.

Heroes, most are just terribly appalling, use a 2 attack 2 def Kiyomasa kat cav(if you have some tokens to throw away, get the 2 extra attack upgrades) they work nicely. Spears of Shig. 2 attack 2 def works well for them. Kat hero 1 def upgrade and use renyos when you field most heroes. It helps.

[Thorien Kell]

Just listen to what I was saying, what Braver says it's optional indeed when you know exactly what you're doing which you currently don't. Melee heavy armies are very standard in MM. Going light on core and relying on cav, matchlocks and plenty of micro is effective only for players with great micro skills and good knowing of game mechanics, ie. Braver (CrazyCat) not for you.

Yari sams are really not so great as core infantry, both naginatas and swords will kill them. Yari ash are not bad, but require plenty of attention and micro to be used propperly, they are more static unit. Medium vetted core will lose to 6 chevron vets in direct clash. It generally pays off having properly upgraded army. I'm not saying there is no other way to play, it certainly is, but I'm trying to show you most practical route.

[sir tree of arbor]

Try some level 6 nag sams as your core of infantry I suggest 5 or 6 of them OR some level 6 monks with retainer stacking. Drop bows for now use rush tatics using bows comes later when you know how to use your infantry and from what your telling us you seem weak in terms of you hand to hand infantry depending perhaps too much on bows that you do not quite know how to use yet. Also I suggest dropping miost hero units unless you are using yari ash or lone sword ash heros are not really cost effective unless you have.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

I like bows. Especially the Samurai ones; they tend to get the most kills overall, since they're less likely to end up breaking and running while charging an enemy and freaking out when they lose 10 men out of 100. Even up against cavalry charges, bow Samurai tend to fare no worse than swordsmen in melee with them.


Even so, my main complaint had little to do with the composition of my army setup----the whole point being that it doesn't matter what units I end up using, for some reason no matter the strengths I assume (Naginata as my core infantry, or Swordsmen with no spearmen) they end up breaking and routing or just dying faster than my opponent, no matter how many times I fight different opponents, and no matter if I rush swordsmen at spearmen or spearmen at cavalry. I've even had No Dachi Samurai break and run after charging Naginata Monks. Given the differences in morale, and potential levels of veterancy, this wouldn't cause much trouble if not for the fact that this sort of thing happens on a very regular basis--- No Dachi veterans either die faster against Naginata units, or break and run, a lot more than 50% of the time.

[Majuts]

Upload some replays for us so we can see what you are doing wrong.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

Uploading an example obtained moments ago. Overall, it was a clear, fair defeat for me, but I found some parts shocking in terms of disbalance; for one, the enemy had a SINGLE unit of non-veteran Yari Cavalry manage to hold back three units of my veteran cavalry (including my general) long enough to waver them, and a unit of Loan Sword Ashigaru wavering while attacking enemy Katana Samurai (who were engaged with a unit of my own swordsmen already) from the rear

[Majuts]

So I have seen the replay you posted and there are a lot of things you did wrong. I'll start with the things you mentioned.

The yari cav was fighting only 2 of your units, one of which was your general. You didn't countercharge in time giving him a lot of kills at the charge. It was also a lvl 6 veteran with decent upgrades while your yari cav, even though also lvl 6, had inferior melee stats. So this isn't unbalanced but an expected outcome in this situation.

Regarding the wavering loan sword ashigaru, your general wasn't near, unit status said it was losing and also it was concerned because of casualties the unit had taken. You need to have your general nearby ashigaru units or they will get scared. And again you should look at the upgrades of your units as the loan sword was lvl 6 and did not have any attack upgrades.

Some other stuff what you did wrong was not protecting your bows. You were lucky he did not charge them with his cav as your melee troops and cav were far away. Also, they were not in loose formation while your opponent's bows were hitting yours, causing you to suffer a lot more casualties than he did.

If I look at your army and tactics as a whole I just see a couple of things that just do not work. The upgrades of your units are really bad as you do not seem to prioritize attack and defense upgrades, which are actually the best upgrades you can get for melee units. Selecting a large number of bows is also not effective in multiplayer and the yari hero is the worst hero unit you can get. It is better to not bring any heroes at all unless you know what you are doing.

I could list some more things but these are the most important stuff you can work on.

[Thorien Kell]

I could list some more things but these are the most important stuff you can work on.

Oh just that?

I LOL'd : D

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

I've taken to mind the melee attack/defence upgrades, but much of my veterans were established long ago, when my biggest issue was the morale problems, so I picked Fatigue Resistance due to fatigue's relation to morale. I intentionally chose the Yari Hero because I had some excess to spare, and I like his name.

I too thought my cavalry use was horrific and sloppy, but it managed to staunch the bleeding surprisingly, maintaining the battle a while longer.

Also, I cannot see any of my enemy units' upgrades or what units they pick before a battle.

[Majuts]

Go to battle interface in the options and set show unit cards to always. After that it will show you the unit stats of your opponents units when you hover over them.

It is also normal in multiplayer that you can't see the units your enemy has selected until the battle starts.

[Thorien Kell]

Do not wait everything to be handled to you on a silver plate - I already told you to check the link under my sig and read article you find there THOROUGHLY. Most of problems plaguing you are described there in more detail.
Here is braver's guide to cheap unit upgrades:
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/42730-A-novice-guide-for-S2-Veterans-Upgrades-and-what-you-can-do-for-them!-maybe....

You should delete all your lousy veterans, ones you can that is. No worries, we all did that several times. If you did screw up your good melee units of DLC (wakos, long yari, BP sam - they a the real heroes, not one you use) and you don't have good retainers on this avatar (Blademaster?) I advise you to start anew. If you lack vet troops raise yourself small army of lvl 2 no dachi (2 attack upgrades) and sent them in first, with banzai. Easy to raise, cheap and effective.

[Man o' War]

I also gave all my veterans a fatigue upgrade thinking it would be important.

As it stands I'm pretty sure fatigue has no bearing whatsoever in multiplayer battles, morale, speed, attack and defence remain static regardless of fatigue levels.

[TheCrazyCat]

the fatigue supposed should work on all those, however it only affects morale, since its still broken.

[Man o' War]

I don't think it even works with morale.

Run your troops ragged and check their stat's. The morale remains unchanged from what I can tell.

[TheCrazyCat]

you dont use the info cards to determine the morale, its shown in the bar above their heads, youll notice it much easier if you had 2 ashigaru units, and one was exhausted(and the general isnt close by), and your opponent runs a general with menpo mask close by, the yari ash exhuasted would route/flicker faster