So I was watching Rome the other day...

[Legionary Jezza]

I was going through season 1 and during the battle The front line row of soldiers would fall back having the second row fight and so on and so on keeping a steady supply of fresh troops fighting on the front.

Did the Romans actually do that in history? And if so I think it would be nice to have in Rome 2.

[Zemdu]

they did, however I don't think that would be smart to implement gameplay wise

[AngryTitusPullo]

they did, however I don't think that would be smart to implement gameplay wise

Rome II is still warscape base so they'll use something rank by fire drill animation like in ETW.

Roman armies will have the chance to learn this technology in time.

[Biggus Splenus]

I was going through season 1 and during the battle The front line row of soldiers would fall back having the second row fight and so on and so on keeping a steady supply of fresh troops fighting on the front.

Did the Romans actually do that in history? And if so I think it would be nice to have in Rome 2.

Yes they did, but not during the period of the previews we have seen so far. About 40 years later is when this technique took it's early stages.

So we most likely will not see it, if it is in the game, during the previews we have seen so far, because during this time the Roman armies were still a militia force, not professionals.

[Roma_Victrix]

Yes they did, but not during the period of the previews we have seen so far. About 40 years later is when this technique took it's early stages.

So we most likely will not see it, if it is in the game, during the previews we have seen so far, because during this time the Roman armies were still a militia force, not professionals.

Hmm. So even before the time period of the 'Rome' series, in the very early republic, we had the front lines being the youngest men, the hastati, then the principes, and finally the back rows formed by the veteran triarii. Of course that old phrase "going to the triarii" meant you were in bad straights, since everything else in your army would have been annihilated. So when the hastati were nearly broken or decimated, the principes would move in for the kill. Right? Or did the principes often engage in the melee in consecutive turns with the hastati? Is there any clear evidence from textual sources (i.e. Polybius, Livy, and others) that this is how it was done? I've never been quite clear on this issue. Would love to know!

[Biggus Splenus]

Hmm. So even before the time period of the 'Rome' series, in the very early republic, we had the front lines being the youngest men, the hastati, then the principes, and finally the back rows formed by the veteran triarii. Of course that old phrase "going to the triarii" meant you were in bad straights, since everything else in your army would have been annihilated. So when the hastati were nearly broken or decimated, the principes would move in for the kill. Right? Or did the principes often engage in the melee in consecutive turns with the hastati? Is there any clear evidence from textual sources (i.e. Polybius, Livy, and others) that this is how it was done? I've never been quite clear on this issue. Would love to know!

Nothing totally clear to make any ideas cement, but some theories. But this OP is talking about ranks switching, not entire maniples or cohorts.

The Hastati would receive/deal the charge. Once the momentum came down and the enemy was not wavering, they would either retreat through the Principes, or the Principes would reinforce them (depending on the situation). Same with the Triarii, but whenever the Triarii had to fight they would form a phalanx if they could.

Answer your question

[Roma_Victrix]

Nothing totally clear to make any ideas cement, but some theories. But this OP is talking about ranks switching, not entire maniples or cohorts.

The Hastati would receive/deal the charge. Once the momentum came down and the enemy was not wavering, they would either retreat through the Principes, or the Principes would reinforce them (depending on the situation). Same with the Triarii, but whenever the Triarii had to fight they would form a phalanx if they could.

Answer your question

Answered beautifully. Thank you! It makes perfect sense, really. Can't wait to see the gameplay mechanics revolved around this in RTW2 and if the in-game advisors give novice players points on how to use these units in battle.

[Biggus Splenus]

and if the in-game advisors give novice players points on how to use these units in battle.

That would be nice if they did that to advise the player how to use them historically, +rep for a good idea

[Gelston]

Hmm. So even before the time period of the 'Rome' series, in the very early republic, we had the front lines being the youngest men, the hastati, then the principes, and finally the back rows formed by the veteran triarii. Of course that old phrase "going to the triarii" meant you were in bad straights, since everything else in your army would have been annihilated. So when the hastati were nearly broken or decimated, the principes would move in for the kill. Right? Or did the principes often engage in the melee in consecutive turns with the hastati? Is there any clear evidence from textual sources (i.e. Polybius, Livy, and others) that this is how it was done? I've never been quite clear on this issue. Would love to know!

The principes were used if the hastati failed to break the enemy, but necessarily destroyed or decimated. The hastati were light infantry units and would be used first, if it didn't seem to be going completely in their favor, they would break off and regroup behind the principes who would then move up. I like to think of the triarii as being a reserve unit back a bit further. If something required immediate attention or just a little bit more push, they'd dispatch them up.

[Biggus Splenus]

The principes were used if the hastati failed to break the enemy, but necessarily destroyed or decimated. The hastati were light infantry units and would be used first, if it didn't seem to be going completely in their favor, they would break off and regroup behind the principes who would then move up. I like to think of the triarii as being a reserve unit back a bit further. If something required immediate attention or just a little bit more push, they'd dispatch them up.

2 things. Hastati were not light infantry, they were medium because they could play the role of both Heavy Infantry and Light Infantry, but not as good as either, they were in the middle of skills and equipment.

The other thing: Hastati did not always break off from the enemy behind the Principes, sometime they broke off and reinforced the flanks, and sometimes the Principes just reinforced the Hastati from behind.

[BJas]

Yes they did, but not during the period of the previews we have seen so far. About 40 years later is when this technique took it's early stages.

So we most likely will not see it, if it is in the game, during the previews we have seen so far, because during this time the Roman armies were still a militia force, not professionals.

That means that Romans were militia during the Punic Wars?

[torongill]

That means that Romans were militia during the Punic Wars?

The Romans were a militia(in the meaning "not professional", not "badly trained reservists playing at soldiers") until Rufius and Marius decided to employ the poor citizens as professional legionaries.

Again, I stress that the militia legion was not weak at all. These were the guys who turned back Pyrrhus, defeated every other hellenistic army they encountered and destroyed Carthage.

P.S. I remember another scene from Rome - Vorenus is describing the battle of Thapsus to the little kid:

""Hold fast," says General Caesar, "let the bastards come!"
"...ballistas on the city walls, and the front line thinks they've heard the order to advance, so before the officers can stop it, the whole ing army charges on Scipio's men double tempo. Now, the elephants see us come, running and screaming and they turn tail and charge on their own lines... Chaos!""

I certainly hope for coarse, soldier-talk speeches from the best generals Give me SarMajor Sixta before Hamlet/Macbet any day

[Gelston]

I was going through season 1 and during the battle The front line row of soldiers would fall back having the second row fight and so on and so on keeping a steady supply of fresh troops fighting on the front.

Did the Romans actually do that in history? And if so I think it would be nice to have in Rome 2.

I was a little upset to see my Post-Marian Reform troops not fighting in this manner in the first Rome. I remember before I even played a campaign I decided to do quick battle.. I set up my forces to look all nice and pretty with a realistic formation. I sent my velites up to harass the enemy so they would charge my lines. I wait and they got closer, I looked with glee as my Legionaries threw their Pila. Then when it got to Melee I sighed as they all just broke formation to run up and attack. I can understand how it would probably be difficult to code though, and I can just pretend in my head that they fought in that manner.

Do I expect to see it in Rome II? Not at all

[Gelston]

Eh, that depends if you are of the school of thought that thinks medium infantry exists.

And yes, there is a multitude of things they could do, I was merely stating standard practice. A general could have them break off and do the Twist if he so wanted to.

[Biggus Splenus]

Eh, that depends if you are of the school of thought that thinks medium infantry exists.

And yes, there is a multitude of things they could do, I was merely stating standard practice. A general could have them break off and do the Twist if he so wanted to.

If you don't believe that medium infantry exists, then they were heavy infantry during the time of the Second Punic War on-wards. Before then they were not light infantry, but not heavy infantry either, so you need to use the term medium infantry, because it's the only one that makes sense.

[Gelston]

All this depends on the era you are referring to really. There were, of course, multiple "reforms" and reorganizations of the Roman military prior to the oh so famous Marian Reforms.

Well... Light armor, light weapons... Light infantry. Technically at one time they were spearmen too. Hastati were generally hastati because they were poor and couldn't afford heavy armor. Yes, I know they changed under the Polybian System to being the youngest and least experienced, but they still had light armor.

Still, Light/Heavy Infantry is purely a designator based on a number of different (and sometimes pointless) factors. I was "Light Infantry" when I was in the Military, but I still ran around carrying just as much stuff as "Heavy Infantry".

[Legionary Jezza]

Thanks for your replies.

[bobbin]

AFAIK it is a speculative theory based on the fact that we know the Romans rotated out thier tired soldiers, we don't have a clue how they did this though.

[Destraex]

two words

triple acies

[bobbin]

Was that aimed at me?