Sun tzu's influence in total war

[Sun Jetzu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfNDQQPcUm0
This is an online battle where i attempt to use some of sun tzu's teachings in order to win.
Now i come to ask myself, throughout all total war games, through online and campaign. How many of you have used Sun tzu's lessons in your strategy, how relevant is his teachings? If not him then who inspires you?
Do you practice
preparation
deception
indirect attack?
These skills will be helpful in the campaign map, but during battle...what is the strategy? What are your stories of your strategy winning in the end. Or even your opponents?
If you dont know who Sun tzu is, heres links to the BEST documentary about his teaching through 4 different wars and how they affected the outcome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARaxNXL0kks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfNDQQPcUm0&feature=plcp

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I was under the impression that basically anyone who was any good at strategy at ALL used Sun Tzu's methods.


I mean, they're so incredibly obvious how can you not use them?

[TheDarkKnight]

Did you seriously post this in EVERY general discussion subforum!?

[zzzms]

It seems to me that, in the rock-paper-scissors world that is Shogun2, Sun Tzu bears very little relevance. That and the fact that the AI doesn't have any concept of human emotions, such as fear i.e. no human General would lay seige to an army of 5000 men with an army of 500...camping my army on the correct side of a hill makes no difference whatsoever...I can't use true deception, such as making my highly disciplined army appear to be a disorganised mass...
However, as Top Hat Zebra says: "anyone who is any good at strategy at all, uses Sun Tzu's methods".

[Sun Jetzu]

Zebra: yes, if you do realize the obviousness of certain strategies then you would be following sun tzu's methods. But not all of us use these teqniques, wether your a beginner or dont really know that much about strategy. They arnt that obvious. I was curious on how many of us really use deceptive strategy and have it actually work on online battles. Usually i feel like most people just use a rush overwhelm strategy, which would be the opposite of sun tzu.
Gen Chris: Yes, I was curious if the strategies are relevant on every game. So i wanted everyone to see it.
Zzzms: I was actually thinking the deception could work on campaign and mainly in a mod that improves AI lol.The vanilla version just seems to throw everything they have at you.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I don't think that overwhelming force is necessarily the opposite of what Sun Tzu taught.

I think rushing your men blindly towards the enemy is a bad move, but if it's what would work in a specific situation, and it would win the battle, I think Sun Tzu would do it. To me, Sun Tzu's guide wasn't really a "How-To" on tactics, it was a How-to on winning. If something will let you win, then you do it.

With that in mind, I guess that any tactic that would win would be approved by Sun Tzu.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

If Sun Tzu ever said "Wait for your enemy to bum rush you, and you shall be victorious." then yes, I have.

[Lord Baratheon]

[QUOTE=John F. Kennedy;12130820]"Wait for your enemy to bum rush you, and you shall be victorious." QUOTE]

Does this.....does it..What...is there a sexual meaning to this.

On a more serious note,I think what a lot are forgetting that Sun Tzu's tactics are implemeted by CA in a lot of the diplomacy/Campaign strategy aspect of the Game.It would all be great if the AI thought like a Human,however this,I imagine,would be quite difficult to implement.In short, we should not be so hard on CA.

[Humble Warrior]

I have read Sun Tzu and practiced some of his methods in not only Total War, but other strategy games.

Now you ask about how his words work in battle. what I`ve found:

1. Redirecting the enemy and hitting him when he doesn`t expect it- works. Hide troops in trees, wait till his army engages your main line then attack with hiding troops- works.

2. Rushing your troops to reach a good spot such as a hill first- works. The AI knows this tactic as well.

3. Staying in a good defensive spot and letting the enemy waste himself on you while you kill him with arrows- works. AI knows this too.

4. On the other hand knowing when to use your forces to attack and crush an enemy also works. Staying on the defence forever is not a guarantee of victory- Works. If you have a definte winning number- attack.

5. Winning with fewest possible casualties is possible and what Sun Tzu advises.

6. Fighting with a huge army is no different than fighting with a small one. It`s simple a question of dividing up the numbers- works, especially in sieges (what some would call micromanaging).

7. When fighting a big battle and you have the enemy surrounded and you`ve almost won, leave a little gap for the enemy to escape through. This way, the enemy will rather flee through this gap rather than fighting to the death, losing his will to fight and strength and you can wipe him out all the easier. I tried this- and it works!

8. Sun Tzu says not to expect too much from individuals, but to combine your forces for effect. This is very true in Total War.

9. Hold a body of picked men to lie in wait for attack- ambush. Works if you time it right.

10. Timing is everything. Works, especially when facing superior forces.

11. Place your men in deadly peril with no escape actually does work to give your men the best chance of surviving sometimes.

Where it doesn`t work.

1. You can`t fake the AI out by making your forces look bigger than they actually are. Setting up a long thin line of men on a hill to simulate a bigger army does not work- at all.

2. You can`t redirect a river in the hope of washing away or causing turmoil to the enemy.

3. You can`t simulate weakness or disorder and force the enemy AI general into making a stupid mistake, thinking you have disorder in your ranks. You`ll just set yourself up to be defeated.

4. `He will win when he know when to fight and when not to fight`. True for the Human on the battlefield who can practise this. Not true for the AI. No matter how weak it is, if it appears on the battlefield it will stupidly fight, instead of retreating. In the original Shogun and MTW, the BAI knew to retreat if it saw its situation was hopeless on the field.

5. The BAI has no ability to feint or trick a Player into a bad position. It never ambushes, even though we are told of ambushes on the battlefield. It is unable to lead players into a kill zone.

6. No battlefield psychology works against the BAI. It too perfectly knows the numbers, but not the Human side of warfare. Humans do not just act on numbers alone.

7. You can`t attack with fire or use fire against the enemy. Sure you can use archers, but Sun Tzu is talking about attacking them by setting bush and forest on fire, catching them- ill prepared in camp or even baggage trains, then attacking with your army while they are in disarray. Would be great if you could just forests on fire. Same with water. You cannot use it as a form of attack (redirecting rivers, creating muddy ground, etc).


Sun Tzu also deals a lot with the Human side of soldiery and how to deal\read it, unfortunately, as with many wargames, people totally omit this part of warfare which I have never understood why. Any leader of men in war has to understand his troops to be effective, they are not robots. Soldiers are all Human beings.

Anyway, that`s some of what I`ve found. Total War could do a heck of a lot more from Sun Tzu than it does as it really is not much.

p.s. In Total War`s favour, the moral and fatigue elements has certainly made soldiers seem more Human compared to most other warfare games and one reason why I started playing it. I liked the fact that men could run away out of fear or tiredness or both. It made them human. It will be the true end of Total War games if CA ever remove these elements.

[Erwin Rommel]

Sun Tzu would have applauded if I actually dissuade from useless battles which are the hallmarks of a total war campaign and just plainly use bribery and cunning to make the enemy submit to me.

Lots of Junsatsushi and Shinsengumi.

But lets enumerate the precepts of Sun Tzu and have commentaries related to the Total War game just like chinese scholars did like Cao Cao. I invite people to add to the list.

(I will now assume a scholarly mode of typing with an wise sage asian accent (then again, already asian to begin with ))

Chapter 1 始計

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1

Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State.

This is TOTAL WAR! (tm)

2

It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.

Indeed, hence I keep quicksaves whenever a decisive battle is about to occur.

3

The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field. #
4

These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline. #

Indeed wise words...

5,6

The MORAL LAW causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.

Hence my 5 star taisho is more effective leading men of dubious morale because I had skills researched in the tech tree to raise those things. 20% more effective rally button baby.

7

HEAVEN signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons. #

We always encounter this whenever a battle occurs except when we are defending, only heaven wills what we will have on a defending battle. I hate fog for those reasons. I advise campaigns to be started at summer. Spring brings too many rains, Autumn brings too many fogs, and winter just depletes your men and put undue stresses that can be easily ignored. While summer is a great time, the cicadas can be heard among the trees buzzing around.

8

EARTH comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death. #

Hence a Date Daimyo must be more prudent at launching campaigns than a Shimazu one, for the Date is always in danger that the Mogami might strike and the armies of the Date are in Fukushima, too far away to react to the attack on Iwate. Meanwhile the Shimazu is on narrow ground, no one can strike Satsuma without being seen by the Shimazu.

On horses, it is advisable to have horse mounted bushi when campaigning around the Kanto and Kansai areas for that is open ground however never rely on them when near Shinano. (I know, the Takeda is there but hey )

9

The COMMANDER stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness. #

Never let your taisho stay too long in a castle lest he acquires an "eye for the ladies" trait. Do not be tempted to loot the level 4 castle of Omi lest you inspire rebellion and consternation when non should be needed.

10

By METHOD AND DISCIPLINE are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure. #

Hence it is advisable to look to your roads and improve or build them to facilitate quicker unit replenishment. Discipline must forever be inscribed in your mind, do NOT RECRUIT THAT WASTEFUL KATANA SAMURAI! It is not needed! It consumes food and money which would other wise be stored for future use in more distressing times. You say they are an effective unit? But are they efficient? You recruit them all the way Iwate while war is being waged in......................Aki,

11

These five heads should be familiar to every general: he who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail. #

12

Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise: #

13

(1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law? #

(2) Which of the two generals has most ability? #

(3) With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth? #

(4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced? #

(5) Which army is stronger? #

(6) On which side are officers and men more highly trained? #

(7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment? #

Why I do. I seek to unit the realm in ALL UNDER HEAVEN WITH MILITARY RULE. Tenka Fubu (tm).

Who has the most ability? Mine can do a stand and fight while the poor Mogami taisho cannot.

I have carefully coordinated with the will of heaven and had initiated hostilities in the Winter and proceed to move in the Summer. I have taken advantage of the elements of the Earth by hill and red line camping.

Discipline? Why my men do not needlessly charge, my army is like the extension of my hand, following my will like.......my hand... oh and I happen to have 2 stacks while Mogami-dono has...1.

I trained Nodachi samurai and rely on a backbone of veteran yari wielding bushi, meanwhile Mogami dono relies on ashigaru.

Rewards and punishment are to be meted out whenever it occurs. An ashigaru-taisho has distinguished itself and is a good candidate to be a vassal? Why of course. A vassal is having rebellious thoughts? Order him to commit seppuku.

14

By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat. #

OUR MEN ARE RUNNING FROM THE BATTLEFIELD! SHAMEFUL DISPLAY!

15

The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat: let such a one be dismissed! #

Indeed, however I am a great admirer of the Three Strategies of Huang Shigong........since.......well its only 3.

[QUOTE16

While heeding the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful circumstances over and beyond the ordinary rules. #][/QUOTE]

Henceforth, it is advisable to watch endless Lets Play youtube videos, MP battles, after action reports and other forms of literature like useless tip threads and what not.

Or you just cheat.

17

According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans. #

Before, I admonished you, from partaking in a dishonorable act of looting, however, if circumstances are dire and relinquishing that territory is an inevitable reality, then loot it and abandon it.

18

All warfare is based on deception. #

Remember this words when playing Shogun 2. Pretend that you are doing more important work like school project or whatnot lest you incur the ire of your parents and the harmony of filial piety will be ruined.

19

Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. #

Okehazama.

20

Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. #

Let the enemy needlessly attack our weak garrisons in the frontier, meanwhile we will consolidate and make and concentrated effort where they least expect it. Sado Island!

21

If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. #

If the enemy advances confidently with formations in good order, troop dispositions prudently made and adequately manned then be prepared for a 50/50 battle. If he just plains outnumbers you with 3 stacks deployed then the rout button is your friend.

22

If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. #

More for MP players. Pretend to be humble and not a sound tactician in MP replays in youtube commentary videos via posting videos showing nothing but defeats. That way, they will, at most times, underestimate you.

23

If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. #

The Mogami have been defeated, they are exhausted and winter has dawned. Envoys have been sent requesting for peace. Deny him that respite.

24

Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected. #

If the front is in Kansai, with the Mori possessing the lower half of the Honshu, we will attack Aki from the Inland Sea.

25

These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand. #

We are using the Winged Crane formation in our next battle. Alright guys?

26

Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. #

The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose. #

Arithmetic via troop numbers, geometry via defilade and enfilade and flanking, meteorology when picking the right time and season to do battle. Accounting to make a good balance sheet. Yes, got that covered.

Stay tuned for Chapter 2. 作戰

[Sun Jetzu]

I beleive most players use a simple rush and destroy type of strategy, Sun Tzu would have gone with the option that might win but also destroys more than half your force, he would have waited until the right time to strike. He wouldnt have gone in and hoped to win by almost destroying his own force too. With that logic you'de be the opponent who goes into battle and seeks victory after, instead of seeking vicotroy before the battle begins.

[Humble Warrior]

I beleive most players use a simple rush and destroy type of strategy, Sun Tzu would have gone with the option that might win but also destroys more than half your force, he would have waited until the right time to strike. He wouldnt have gone in and hoped to win by almost destroying his own force too. With that logic you'de be the opponent who goes into battle and seeks victory after, instead of seeking vicotroy before the battle begins.

What is this obsession with online? Nobody plays Online in the way a real General would fight especially now that defending a hill is considered `cheating` by some and by the debug mode they use that Sun tzu most assuredly would not have.

Fine. You want what Sun Tzu would REALLY DO? Sun Tzu would laugh at Shogun Total War calling it `War for babies that know nothing of it` then walk away or heckle CA until they made it authentic to reality, if you were lucky.

[Sun Jetzu]

What is this obsession with online? Nobody plays Online in the way a real General would fight especially now that defending a hill is considered `cheating` by some and by the debug mode they use that Sun tzu most assuredly would not have.

Fine. You want what Sun Tzu would REALLY DO? Sun Tzu would laugh at Shogun Total War calling it `War for babies that know nothing of it` then walk away or heckle CA until they made it authentic to reality, if you were lucky.

That was the question I was asking, how many of you actually do. I've tried to fight in this way online because I wanted to see if it would work. In game the AI is too dimwitted to be a fair fight, unless theres a mod. Defending a hill isnt cheating, its strategy first of all, no matter what. And ive lost many hills trust me, and ive taken many hills trust me again.
heres an example of losing a hill : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpluTFTYFuc&feature=plcp
heres and example of winning one : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfNDQQPcUm0&feature=plcp

Its all a matter of tactics and if a plan is relevant to the situation. What Sun Tzu would say, if he saw total war. He would call it a great way to test your abilities and skills without losing hundreds of lives. Thats would be his honest opinion, from the man who stated that an enlightened opponent will defeat his opponent without fighting.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I beleive most players use a simple rush and destroy type of strategy, Sun Tzu would have gone with the option that might win but also destroys more than half your force, he would have waited until the right time to strike. He wouldnt have gone in and hoped to win by almost destroying his own force too. With that logic you'de be the opponent who goes into battle and seeks victory after, instead of seeking vicotroy before the battle begins.

It depends on whether the best option is to attack straight on or not.


Sometimes, that's the only option.


I wouldn't know anything about multiplayer, though. I do not play. I do use real world tactics against the AI, though but I can't really say if they're more effective than just standing in a line and shooting them to death.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I actually started doing battles the way Napoleon did it and I ended up winning all the historical battles. Same with all the historical battles in all the Total War games. I also did Napoleon like Tactics and Strategy and thus far I haven't encountered a multiplayer I can't win or a grand campaign that is too hard (not even on hard mode, albeit I can't do the declare war on everyone in one turn).

[Sun Jetzu]

I actually started doing battles the way Napoleon did it and I ended up winning all the historical battles. Same with all the historical battles in all the Total War games. I also did Napoleon like Tactics and Strategy and thus far I haven't encountered a multiplayer I can't win or a grand campaign that is too hard (not even on hard mode, albeit I can't do the declare war on everyone in one turn).

Napoleons tactics huh? What are some examples, I think we all would like to know some of these unbeatable strategies.

[Erwin Rommel]

Just better off reading an almost contemporary work, Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings.

Rat's Head, Ox's Neck
"Rat's head and ox's neck" means that, when we are fighting with the enemy and both he and we have become occupied with small points in an entangled spirit, we must always think of the Way of strategy as being both a rat's head and an ox's neck. Whenever we have become preoccupied with small details, we must suddenly change into a large spirit, interchanging large with small.

This is one of the essences of strategy. It is necessary that the warrior think in this spirit in everyday life. You must not depart from this spirit in large-scale strategy nor in single combat.

Very true. Sometimes, I get too engrossed commanding a cavalry charge on a flanking attack that I neglect looking at my center and woe is me as I beheld them collapse due to my taisho being sent to other matters.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Sun-Tzu's work can be summed up as "COMMON ING SENSE".