The Valonqar (MAJOR SPOILERS)

[Mount Suribachi]

OK, this thread contains MAJOR SPOILERS up till the end of ADWD.

You have been warned!!

So, I've been thinking about the identity of the Valonqar in the prophecy given to a young Cersei by Maggy the Frog. First up a recap, and establishing Maggy's credentials.

Cersei: When will I wed the prince? [Rhaegar]
Maggy: Never. You will wed the king. [True, she marries King Robert Baratheon]
Cersei: I will be queen, though?
Maggy: Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear. [True....and the one who will cast her down is yet to be revealed, but widely believed it will be either Margery, Sansa, Arya or Dany]


Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. [True and true]
Maggy: Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you. [Gold crowns refers to both the colour of their hair, and the fact that they shall wear the crown of a king/queen (true for Joff and Tommen so far anyway). Not quite figured out the gold their shrouds bit yet.

Melara: Will I marry Jaime?
Maggy: Not Jaime, nor any other man, Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close. [True, Cersei murders her later that night.]

So, having established that pretty much everything else in the prophecy is known to have come true so far, we come to the Valonqar, which as we know is High Valaryian for little brother.

Cersei is convinced the prophecy refers to Tyrion, and through Cersei's POV, GMMR also tries to convince us it will be Tyrion. Of course, AGOT fans aren't convinced that easily, and many think that in a twist it will be her lover and brother Jaime (who was born second, making him the little brother).

But then I read a theory that the "little brother" will actually be Ser Loras (no-one apart from Cersei really believes he's mortally wounded, right?) either in revenge for Cersei getting Margaery killed, or killing Cersei after Margaery has become queen.

So then I started thinking about other likely little brothers. Bran or Rickon? Unlikely. The not really dead Sandor Clegane? Mayhaps. Bugger the Lannisters. Perhaps at Sansa's request, perhaps working for the faith.

Stannis Baratheon? Now there's a little brother no-one seems to have thought about. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations.

And then I thought about the wording. The valonqar. Not your valonqar. Not just valonqar, but the valonqar. Implying it doesn't have to be Cersei's little brother, but can be any little brother (including Cersei's still).

And then I thought about the fact that little brother is in High Valryian. Why? When the rest of the prophecy is in "english", why does she use the language of kings, the language of old Valyria? Surely there has to be a reason?

Does it point to House Targaryen? Could young Aegon be the little brother and Dany the one who casts Cersei down?

Then I learnt that House Baratheon is an old Valyrian house related to the Targaryens, and I was back with Stannis.

But of course High Valarian is also the language of the free cities, of Braavos, of the Faceless Men - Valar Morghulis

Tyrion admits to wishing as a child to hire the Faceless Men to kill Cersei....

So there you have it my friends. Arya Stark the Faceless Man, will be hired by Tyrion to kill Cersei, thus fulfilling the prophecy


And if not Arya then it will Stannis.

Or Aegon.

[Captain Zoran]

I believe shrouds refer to the "mantle" or cover one typically draws over a person's body once they have died. Thus meaning that she will not die until all of her children has been killed.

As for the Valonqar i do belive it's referring to either Tyrion or Jamie. Propably Jamie, seeing how their relationship is as of now and the very possible way it may go (Die sweet sister!) But it's a good process of thought you have invested in this!

[Prophet1331]

Couldn't the shrouds be the cloaks or something similar, because the Baratheon sigil is a black stag on a golden field so it could be the fact that they all style themselves Baratheons ?

Good point with the fact that it could be any little brother rather than Cersei's. Though I don't think Stannis or Aegon would strangle Cersei, they would execute her in public like just and honorable kings (and to win the smallfolk to their side ).

[Mikail Mengsk]

All that seems reasonable... But i still think Tyrion will be THE Valonqar. As Prophet says, Stannis and Aegon wouldn't strangle Cersei but rather behead her in public. Arya would pierce her heart with a blade. Tyrion, however, would really enjoy killing Cersei in the same way he killed Shae...

[el Cid]

This seems like an interesting discussion, one I have thought about a lot while reading. We are totally in the dark about which queen will cast her down (though I suspect Margaery as she clearly has conflict with her). Arya does not seem logical, she will most likely never be queen.

I think that the shrouds do indeed refer to the pieces of cloth over someone's coffin, their crowns could both refer to the colour of their hair and to the crowns (meaning they'll all sit the Iron Throne and die because of it).

As to the valonqar, I'm pretty much convinced this will be Jaime. In the last three books he is less and less dependant on Cersei (who pretty much corrupts him) and this turns him into a likeable character instead of the arrogant Kingslayer he starts as. He also starts to dislike his twin more and more (as can be clearly read).

About the High Valyrian, I guess this is because Maggy (Maegi) was not from Westeros and used a word from another language.

Also is the language of Braavos not some dialect called Braavosi? I really do not think Arya will be the killer, this theory seems a little farfetched to me. This because she is not a queen, not a little brother (even though I get what you mean by implying Tyrion hired her) but then he will in fact not be the one suffocating her with his hands around her throat.


My guess would be that Jaime will in the end kill Cersei because she made him hate her (because she had Brienne killed (again?) or for some other reason).

[Mount Suribachi]

About the High Valyrian, I guess this is because Maggy (Maegi) was not from Westeros and used a word from another language.

Also is the language of Braavos not some dialect called Braavosi? I really do not think Arya will be the killer, this theory seems a little farfetched to me. This because she is not a queen, not a little brother (even though I get what you mean by implying Tyrion hired her) but then he will in fact not be the one suffocating her with his hands around her throat.

According to the Wiki, the Free Cities all speak a High Valarian dialect, including Braavos.

Sandor Clegane might be? I don't think that would make very much sense for the pale white part. I would describe Sandor's hands as bloody or something like that

Its Cersei's throat that is pale white, not the valonqar's hands.

Faceless Men don't strangle because it's inefficient in most every case so I wouldn't think Arya. Not to mention being female and not a "brother". Though she is a tomboy and called little by everyone ever.

But if Tyrion hires her, metaphorically speaking it will be Tyrion's hands wrapped around Cersei's throat. Death by strangulation might be one of the stipulations of the contract, or it might just be how a vengeful Arya answers her own prayer.

Tyrion seems too obvious. And where he would get the money for the Faceless Man I'm not sure. Not to mention, why would the Faceless Men send Arya? She's inexperienced, especially compared to other Faceless Men, and she's the most likely to have her emotions interfere.

The money? Why, he's already promised all the gold in Casterly Rock to an army of sellswords, whats to stop him doing it again? And who's to say the FM will demand money? The Waif was part payment for one contract.

[Ori]

The shrouds bit refers to the burial cloth, meaning all her children will die. I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. Joffrey is already dead, and Tommen/Myrcella don't look to be in the greatest positions.

[Ori]

Why does it have to be a human? Perhaps one of Dany's dragons (Viserion or Rhaegal) kills Cersei or Ghost does? Though that would mess up the strangle part.

As par the theories:
Jaime only has one hand. That messes up the two hands part. Not to mention his right hand is made of gold, so even if he could somehow strangle her with his gold hand it wouldn't be pale white.
Stannis isn't a little brother. His entire claim revolves around being the older brother of Robert. Being the little brother doesn't make sense.
Sandor Clegane might be? I don't think that would make very much sense for the pale white part. I would describe Sandor's hands as bloody or something like that. Not to mention being covered in dirt and grim. And how would he find a way to strangle Cersei? That seems very out of place. Not to mention that's all assume Sandor is still alive, which we're not certain of.
Faceless Men don't strangle because it's inefficient in most every case so I wouldn't think Arya. Not to mention being female and not a "brother". Though she is a tomboy and called little by everyone ever.
Sansa isn't very little nor a brother.
Tyrion seems too obvious.
Aegon maybe if it really is Aegon.
Ser Loras maybe. It's possible.
Tyrion seems too obvious. And where he would get the money for the Faceless Man I'm not sure. Not to mention, why would the Faceless Men send Arya? She's inexperienced, especially compared to other Faceless Men, and she's the most likely to have her emotions interfere. And as I said earlier she would probably stab her somehow, poison her, or something more discreet than strangling.

Also an interesting line from Catelyn.
From ACoK:

“You’re wrong,” Catelyn said sharply. “Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King’s Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister’s white throat and squeezing until her face turns black.”

Though she's both the oldest child in her family and a female and I don't know about a zombie woman strangling anyone.

[complete noob:(]

Stannis isn't a little brother. His entire claim revolves around being the older brother of Robert. Being the little brother doesn't make sense.

Stannis is Roberts little brother

[Ori]

Stannis is Roberts little brother

Oh wow, I'm retarded. I thought he was the oldest in the family this whole time.

[Prophet1331]

Jaime only has one hand. That messes up the two hands part. Not to mention his right hand is made of gold, so even if he could somehow strangle her with his gold hand it wouldn't be pale white.

Good point, it would be hard for Jaime to strangle Cersei with only one hand. You'd think that woods witch (or whatever she was) would point out if the hands wee different. I still want Jaime to be the one who kills her. And now that I think of it more Loras has a good chance for doing it.

Could "strangle" be a metaphor ? Describing how it gets harder and harder for her to live as she has very few trustworthy people around her.

OR

Could she get killed by a wight or Other? Didn't the wight at Castle Black tried to strangle Jon/Mormont ? Maybe some dead little brother coming back as a Wight when/if King's Landing falls to the Others.

[el Cid]

Could she get killed by a wight or Other? Didn't the wight at Castle Black tried to strangle Jon/Mormont ? Maybe some dead little brother coming back as a Wight when/if King's Landing falls to the Others.

Aren't wights supposed to have blackened skin (not white pale)? And I guess Others would use their ice blades.

Also, I do not think the Others will ever make it to KL, would be pretty far south wouldn't it?

EDIT I just noticed the pale white refers to her throat, not the hands, in which case this could be the case (and indicate it could be Jaime with his gold hand).

[Lord AcidRocker]

I always figured it to be Tyrion strangling Cersei with his little hands. Jamie is a very interesting theory as well.

On the other hand, about a younger more beautiful queen taking Cersei's place; I would very much want it to be Sansa.

[Mhaedros]

Nope, Robert was oldest, Stannis second and Renly youngest. I have a feeling Stannis is no true Baratheon though, seeing as he's very different from both his brothers

[Ori]

Nope, Robert was oldest, Stannis second and Renly youngest. I have a feeling Stannis is no true Baratheon though, seeing as he's very different from both his brothers

I think he's just bitter about not getting the Stormlands and always being held as third to his brothers. Not to mention not particularly being loved by anyone or receiving any credit for holding Storm's End/crushing the Iron Fleet. Its taken its toll on him, though I would argue for the better. Which is why he's so different.

[Murfmurf]

Nice thread, +rep Suribachi.

And I'm going for Tyrion as a red herring, and for Jaime to be the Cersei-slayer.

[el Cid]

@Mount Suribachi ah I was not sure about that, Valyrian dialect after all.

[Gallus]

Jaime will strangle her with his golden hand.

[Captain Zoran]

You don't need two hands in order to strangle someone (although it is considerably easier), so Jamie is definetly viable. And Tyrion does seem like the obvious choice, and seeing how Jamie was after all born after Cersei, he is still her "little brother". But all the same, Maggy speaks pretty metaphorically, so it could definetly mean what Prophet said, that the strangulation part is merly metaphorical, as in that she looses her influence bit by bit (maybe by let's say Jamie undermining her) until she finally dies on his blade or something.

[Mhaedros]

He also looks different though, at least IIRC. "The seed is strong"