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Thread: Suggestions

  1. #1
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Suggestions

    Used this thread to propose changes or addition you'd like to see.

    Please do not report "bugs" (use the bug report thread for that).

    Disclaimer : Atlhough I will read all suggestion and answer to all of them, there is no guarantee that the answers will be positive!

    And a negative answer does not mean your suggestion is a wrong on: it may simply be a lack of time to do it or too much work. Or sometimes technical difficulties that make it difficult to take it into account properly.

    Also, if you think the suggestion is worth some debate, you could start a thread for that instead of just adding it here.
    Last edited by Steph; October 15, 2012 at 01:19 AM.

  2. #2
    agunter999's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    To reresent some of the smaller (non exsistant) states
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=565418

  3. #3
    Biggus Splenus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Why suggest this? Steph and L'Aigle have already put a tone of effort in to emergent nations they have covered.

    If you would have been following the mod, you would know that they are doing exactly what you have suggested

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    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    We have just released Austrian, and it includes Hungarian as an emergent.

    Next we'll release Russia, and it will include the Crimea and Courland emergents.

    After this, Prussia and Bavaria should come quickly, and later the whole Confederacy of the Rhine.

    We'll make uniforms and detailed roster for every "playable" factions, as a minor or an emergent.
    So we'll have uniforms for Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Saxony, Hessen (Kassel and Darmstadt), Westphalia, Oldenburg, Mecklenbourg, and Hannover. For these units, we will have several periods when needed. Bavaria will not see variation of uniforms, while Saxony will get two periods.
    These are factions that exist in the game and will get units.

    Then, I've planned to add some "bonus" units. For exemple, Baden doesn't exist as a faction, and not really as a region (Baden Wurttemberg only has one settlement, Stutgart). However, I have planned to make a few Baden units, that will be recruitable in Stutgart.
    In the same way, Hessen will also includes some Nassau units, and In Cleves Berg, you'll get some extra units as well.
    And Brunswicker are recruitable in Hannover.

  5. #5
    agunter999's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    I was just thinking you could do some saxe duchy units for saxony, and the same for the other I have suggested. It would just help represent the missing factions
    Really all these should be represented
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confede...ber_monarchies
    If you did this would become the best mod
    Last edited by agunter999; October 21, 2012 at 05:56 AM.

  6. #6
    Biggus Splenus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by agunter999 View Post
    I was just thinking you could do some saxe duchy units for saxony, and the same for the other I have suggested. It would just help represent the missing factions
    Really all these should be represented
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confede...ber_monarchies
    If you did this would become the best mod
    THEY ARE DOING THESE! Obviously, they are doing other major factions first, sound logical?

    Patience is something needed here, agunter
    Last edited by Biggus Splenus; October 21, 2012 at 07:15 AM.

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  7. #7
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    They will not make EVERY small states of the Rhine confederacy, because
    1) They are not on the map, not even as a small town
    2) The number of slots available to make new uniforms in an atlas is limited
    3) Some units are too small compared to the others. We are using a scale of roughly 1 units for two regiments. So to keep some balance and consistency, we cannot make all the small units.
    4) Making units take times. We still have many bigger factions to do before considering adding more of the smallest german states.

  8. #8
    agunter999's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    I didn't expect them to be done first
    It's just that they are poorly represented
    And I personally think it is unfair
    As for the atlas problem a new atlas could be made
    I would do it myself but I don't know how
    I think it's proberbly time to learn

  9. #9
    haldarion's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Salut à vous!

    Tout d'abord Grand Travail!!!! Voici le futur meilleur Mod!!!!

    Mais ce Mod est en développement alors je vais essayer d'apporter ma contribution!

    Ensuite je vais vous dire point par point, mes conseils et les défauts à régler:


    -La proportion Cavalerie/Infanterie/Tirailleurs/Artillerie/Général est à revoir. L'Infanterie et et l'Artillerie sont bien proportionnés, mais la taille des unités de Cavalerie est beaucoup trop grosse et devrait être réduite d'1/3. Pour les Tirailleurs, un unité devrait faire 1/3 des unités de ligne et pour le Général hormis quelques un comme le Maréchal Murat (pour la France), ils devraient être réduit de moitié afin de pouvoir rentrer dans les carrés d'infanterie de ligne. Ces proportions que je vous propose seraient beaucoup plus similaires à celles de l'époque.
    -Les munitions pour les unités d'Infanterie est trop faible. A l'époque, un soldat de l'infanterie de ligne partait à la Bataille avec 30 cartouches et un soldat de l'infanterie légère ou des Tirailleurs, partait avec 40 cartouches. L’infanterie légère et les Tirailleurs faisaient les combats d'Avant-garde/Arrière garde et participaient à la bataille.
    -La précision des unités d'Infanterie est trop grande et les unités sont décimées trop rapidement. A l'époque, mis à part la première salve qui faisait beaucoup de dégâts, les salves suivantes étaient moins précises à cause de la fumée dégagée par les armes et la fatigue. Il était donc important d’obtenir le premier feu, avant l'ennemi!!!
    -L’efficacité des tirs d'Artillerie sont trop puissants. L'Artillerie faisait des ravages à l'époque mais les canons étaient moins efficace et les obusiers étaient beaucoup moins efficace.
    -Pour les unités de Sapeur, je pense que leur utilité est trop limitée. En effet, les grenades sont très bien et représente leur capacité à détruire via des explosifs. Mais je pense qu'ils devraient être capable de poser des pieux poser des mines et des ouvrages de défense (tranchés, haie de pieux etc).
    -Le moral de la Cavalerie et son efficacité doivent être augmentés. Les unités de cavalerie sont trop faible contre l'infanterie de ligne de base et fuient trop rapidement.

    Pour finir, je dirais que globalement c'est un Mod avec un potentiel en or, mais qui n'est pas encore mur, surtout dans les proportions des tailles d'unités et les statistiques (moral, précision, munitions etc)...
    Mais pour ce qui est de la présentation, de la diversité des unités, le réalisme des "skins" et des recherches historiques, c'est un travail FORMIDABLE!!!

  10. #10
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by haldarion View Post
    Salut à vous!

    Tout d'abord Grand Travail!!!! Voici le futur meilleur Mod!!!!
    Mais ce Mod est en développement alors je vais essayer d'apporter ma contribution!

    Ensuite je vais vous dire point par point, mes conseils et les défauts à régler:
    First, this is a English speaking forum.
    Second, I think you should try to present your suggestion in a more subtle way. Coming here with 11 posts and explaining how you think you know everything better than others may be seen as a little offensive for people who spent hours discussing the design. Especially since some of your suggestions show that you don't know how the mod was designed.

    Now let's review your suggestions.
    -La proportion Cavalerie/Infanterie/Tirailleurs/Artillerie/Général est à revoir. L'Infanterie et et l'Artillerie sont bien proportionnés, mais la taille des unités de Cavalerie est beaucoup trop grosse et devrait être réduite d'1/3. Pour les Tirailleurs, un unité devrait faire 1/3 des unités de ligne et pour le Général hormis quelques un comme le Maréchal Murat (pour la France), ils devraient être réduit de moitié afin de pouvoir rentrer dans les carrés d'infanterie de ligne. Ces proportions que je vous propose seraient beaucoup plus similaires à celles de l'époque.
    French voltigeur, grenadiers and fusilier compagnies all had roughly 140 men. We reduced the grenadier and voltigeurs a little for gameplay balance. There is no reason for the tirailleur to be only 1/3 of a line unit.
    A French squadron of two companies was theoretically around 200 men, but more often 160. This means 80 for a companie. Hence cavalry units of 80 men.


    -Les munitions pour les unités d'Infanterie est trop faible. A l'époque, un soldat de l'infanterie de ligne partait à la Bataille avec 30 cartouches et un soldat de l'infanterie légère ou des Tirailleurs, partait avec 40 cartouches. L’infanterie légère et les Tirailleurs faisaient les combats d'Avant-garde/Arrière garde et participaient à la bataille.
    We used half of that. Since we have battles which last at most one hour compared to several hours in real time, limiting the number of ammunition compensates for the shorter battles.

    -La précision des unités d'Infanterie est trop grande et les unités sont décimées trop rapidement. A l'époque, mis à part la première salve qui faisait beaucoup de dégâts, les salves suivantes étaient moins précises à cause de la fumée dégagée par les armes et la fatigue. Il était donc important d’obtenir le premier feu, avant l'ennemi!!!
    Smoke has no effect in game and this can't be modeled.

    -L’efficacité des tirs d'Artillerie sont trop puissants. L'Artillerie faisait des ravages à l'époque mais les canons étaient moins efficace et les obusiers étaient beaucoup moins efficace.
    Artillery is not that dangerous unless concentrated. And funnily, people are usually complaining it does make too little damage.

    -Pour les unités de Sapeur, je pense que leur utilité est trop limitée. En effet, les grenades sont très bien et représente leur capacité à détruire via des explosifs. Mais je pense qu'ils devraient être capable de poser des pieux poser des mines et des ouvrages de défense (tranchés, haie de pieux etc).
    Since the deployement of mines can be done only in front of each unit, the sapper won't be able to make this. About the stakes: this it no compatible with grenade. Although we tried to give both, the engine doesn't allow this: thne "stakes" and the "grenade" buttons are at the same position in the interface, and it is probably hardcoded.

    -Le moral de la Cavalerie et son efficacité doivent être augmentés. Les unités de cavalerie sont trop faible contre l'infanterie de ligne de base et fuient trop rapidement.
    And you want to make them smaller? Cavalerie already has a better morale than infantry (except guard). Cavalry is efficient when used properly.


    Pour finir, je dirais que globalement c'est un Mod avec un potentiel en or, mais qui n'est pas encore mur, surtout dans les proportions des tailles d'unités et les statistiques (moral, précision, munitions etc)...
    Mais pour ce qui est de la présentation, de la diversité des unités, le réalisme des "skins" et des recherches historiques, c'est un travail FORMIDABLE!!!
    Thanks, especially for the second part.

  11. #11
    haldarion's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Sorry I forgot to publish my message in English version!!!
    I translated with an internet translator thus I think that the quality of translation will not be very good!:S

    "Hi to you!

    First Great Work!! Here is the best Mod future!!
    But this mod is in development so I'll try to make my contribution!

    Then I'll tell you point by point defects and my advice to solve:


    -The proportion Cavalry / Infantry / Riflemen / Artillery / General is reviewing. Infantry and Artillery and are well proportioned, but the size of Cavalry units is much too large and should be reduced by 1/3. Skirmishers for a unit should be third line units and General except some one like Marshal Murat (for France), they should be reduced by half in order to get into the infantry squares line . These proportions that I propose would be much more similar to those of the time.
    -Ammunition for infantry units is too low. At the time, a soldier of the line infantry left the Battle with 30 cartridges and a soldier of the light infantry or skirmishers, started with 40 cartridges. The light infantry and skirmishers were fighting Avant-garde / Rear Guard and participated in the battle.
    -The accuracy of Infantry units is too large and units are decimated too quickly. At the time, except that the first salvo was a lot of damage, following bursts were less accurate because of the smoke from the weapons and fatigue. It was important to get the first fire before the enemy!
    -The effectiveness of artillery fire are too powerful. Artillery was rampant at the time but were less effective guns and howitzers were much less effective.
    -For Sapper units, I think their usefulness is limited too. Indeed, pomegranates are very good and represents their ability to destroy via explosives. But I think they should be able to ask pious lay mines and defenses (sliced, hedge piles etc).
    -The moral of the Cavalry and efficiency must be increased. Cavalry units are weak against infantry baseline and flee too quickly.

    Finally, I would say that overall it's a Mod with a gold potential but is not yet ripe, especially in the proportions of unit sizes and Statistics (moral, accuracy, ammunition etc) ...
    But what is the presentation of the diversity of units, the realism of "skins" and historical research, this is a GREAT job! Insert your text here."

  12. #12
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Online translators are not very reliable...

    Like pomegrenate is the fruit, not the weapon. Grenade is simply grenade.

    If you have difficulties with English, I think you can write messages in French as long as you also include an English version (even if poorly translated). This way others can understand your main points, and I'll get the substilities in French.

    You can also send me a PM in French if you want to discuss in this language.

  13. #13
    haldarion's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    I think you should try to present your suggestion in a more subtle way. Coming here with 11 posts and explaining how you think you know everything better than others may be seen as a little offensive for people who spent hours discussing the design. Especially since some of your suggestions show that you don't know how the mod was designed.
    You complain that I am full without arguing.
    This topic is for the suggestion there, I propose my ideas based on the fact that I was able to see in the parts tests that I do. Later, if that does not please you, it is your choice but to blame me not for having no same impression as you on Mod or for not knowing how Mod was made. I am not a creator!
    I does not understand you to blame me why for not presenting well my ideas! I put dashes and I jumped lines. I underlined the general idea of every point. If that does not suit to you, too bad for you, I am not there to act according to your wish.

    We used half of that. Since we have battles which last at most one hour compared to several hours in real time, limiting the number of ammunition compensates for the shorter battles.
    Smoke has no effect in game and this can't be modeled.
    Since the deployement of mines can be done only in front of each unit, the sapper won't be able to make this. About the stakes: this it no compatible with grenade. Although we tried to give both, the engine doesn't allow this: thne "stakes" and the "grenade" buttons are at the same position in the interface, and it is probably hardcoded.
    Ok, i agree with you for this points.

    And you want to make them smaller? Cavalerie already has a better morale than infantry (except guard). Cavalry is efficient when used properly.
    A regiment of Dragon (France) which loads(charges) with side a regiment of " fencible " (England) which lost 1/4 of his(her,its) staff and which is massacred, I do not believe that that is normal!

    Artillery is not that dangerous unless concentrated. And funnily, people are usually complaining it does make too little damage.
    A howitzer which pulls(fires) at a regiment of infantry and kills 10 soldiers on 140 it is enormous!!! Can be that I was inequitable with the rest of the artillery but surement not with howitzers!!!

    French voltigeur, grenadiers and fusilier compagnies all had roughly 140 men. We reduced the grenadier and voltigeurs a little for gameplay balance. There is no reason for the tirailleur to be only 1/3 of a line unit.
    A French squadron of two companies was theoretically around 200 men, but more often 160. This means 80 for a companie. Hence cavalry units of 80 men.
    In a French's bataillon of a regiment of line infantry, there were some rifle company (six I believe) more a company of acrobats and a company of pomegranate tree. In other words, according to period a regiment, consisted of two represented battalions, between 1400 and 2000 men(people).
    A regiment of cavalry consisted of 400 men (two squadrons with two companies of 80 men, if I do not make a mistake).
    In brief the proportion in the regimental scale(ladder) was about 4 foot soldiers for a rider. Yet) in this Mod the proportion is 2 foot soldiers for a rider. I believe I can thus assert that the proportions are not good between the infantry and the cavalry. For the acrobats, you are right. Of what think of it you for General staff???

  14. #14
    Biggus Splenus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    haldarion, don't worry about these suggestions. This mod's team has already gone through extensive lengths for accuracy, not to mention they have the most knowledgeable member on TWC focusing on the Napoleonic Era in their team.

    Everything you have pointed out has likely already been considered, and the team has made their decision. You may think they will improve the mod, but others wont

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  15. #15
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by haldarion View Post
    You complain that I am full without arguing.
    This topic is for the suggestion there, I propose my ideas based on the fact that I was able to see in the parts tests that I do. Later, if that does not please you, it is your choice but to blame me not for having no same impression as you on Mod or for not knowing how Mod was made. I am not a creator!
    I does not understand you to blame me why for not presenting well my ideas! I put dashes and I jumped lines. I underlined the general idea of every point. If that does not suit to you, too bad for you, I am not there to act according to your wish.
    You missed the point. It's not a matter of making suggestion, it's how you present them. Re read your message, try to imagine you are a member of MoE, you have spent almost 2 years on the mod discussign things in details, and you have a message "Ensuite je vais vous dire point par point, mes conseils et les défauts à régler". How what you take that?

    Quote Originally Posted by haldarion View Post
    A regiment of Dragon (France) which loads(charges) with side a regiment of " fencible " (England) which lost 1/4 of his(her,its) staff and which is massacred, I do not believe that that is normal!
    How many battles did you play? On the other hands you can decimate several infantry units with one cavalry unit if you play them well. Sometimes the cavalry seems too powerful. Sometimes it seems weak. There is a part of randomness in the game and you cannot base your conclusion on only one example. now if you tell me that after 20 charges, everytime the dragoon lose against Fencibles, may be there is a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by haldarion View Post
    A howitzer which pulls(fires) at a regiment of infantry and kills 10 soldiers on 140 it is enormous!!! Can be that I was inequitable with the rest of the artillery but surement not with howitzers!!!
    Again, does it happen everytime? Or was it a lucky shot ?

    Quote Originally Posted by haldarion View Post
    In a French's bataillon of a regiment of line infantry, there were some rifle company (six I believe) more a company of acrobats and a company of pomegranate tree. In other words, according to period a regiment, consisted of two represented battalions, between 1400 and 2000 men(people).
    Difficult to understand with the poor online translator... Keep the French name for units. A French batallion had 4 compagnies of fusilier (rifle doesn't work here), 1 company of voltigeurs (not acrobats..= and one company of grenadier (grenade= the weapon, pomegranate = the fruit). A company is 140 men (i.e. what we have in game for a unit).

    Quote Originally Posted by haldarion View Post
    A regiment of cavalry consisted of 400 men (two squadrons with two companies of 80 men, if I do not make a mistake).
    Yes, and we have cavalry units of 80-90 men, the size of a company.

    Quote Originally Posted by haldarion View Post
    In brief the proportion in the regimental scale(ladder) was about 4 foot soldiers for a rider. Yet) in this Mod the proportion is 2 foot soldiers for a rider. I believe I can thus assert that the proportions are not good between the infantry and the cavalry. For the acrobats, you are right.
    You are basing this on something which has already been discussed many times. What does a unit represent ?
    Since we have "voltigeur", "grenadier", and "fusilier" units, and we canot mix them (the engine does not allow mixing different type of soldiers in the same unit), then logically a unit is a company. If a unit was a bataillon or a regiment, then it would not be made of only one type of soldiers: a French unit would have 1/6 grenadier, 1/6 voltigeur, 4/6 fusiliers.

    Now, we have an army made of 20 units. If we consider each unit to be a company of 140 men, then the while army is 2800 men. Two real life regiments. Which is not realsitic. So logically a unit cannot be a company.

    So if you try to correspondance between in-game units and real life units, you see that the unit must be a company, and it cannot be a company. This dead-end demonstrates that you can NOT make a correspondance between in game and real life units.

    Another approach is necessary. The design choice we made was to:
    - Use the company level (homogeneous type of units) for the base size of the unit (ie 140 men for French infantry, and 80 for cavalry).
    - Compensate for gameplay: i.e. have voltigeurs unit and grenadier units slightly smaller than fusiliers, or a player may just buy grenadier. And we decided 60 cavalry men was too few for gameplay.
    - Compensate for different organization. The British had companies with only 80 men. But they had 10 companies instead of 6 in a bataillion. So we have British companies a little smaller than French one, but not too much.
    - For the repartition of the companies in a bataillion, we work at the recruitment limits level. The "rule" was: take the historical number of regiments, divide by 2. Then spread with the different units (ex: if France has 100 regiments, then we give 48 fusiliers, 12 grenadiers and 12 voltigeurs to have a 4-1-1 propotion). And compensate to have regional recruitment limits. And we ended with 64 fusiliers, 16 grenadiers and 16 voltigeurs.

    As you can see, the unit size and recruitment limits is complex and takes into account many different parameters.

    Of what think of it you for General staff???
    The General staff is not only the general, is also include some escort from elite companies.

  16. #16
    Hannarr's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    I think its important to give every faction the potential to dominate in every domain of play. Nations should start out historically, but everything after that is hypothetical. By this i mean that, for example, The Prussians should be able to gain access to proper 1st rates, and Russians should be able to get proper riflemen and the Ottomans able to reform their military, moving on from the Janissary armies. Not immediately of course, but after appropriate development.

  17. #17
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    That would kill the purpose of having faction specificities. And since Russia already has jager (but not as good as Britain), if we want to add better riflemen for them later in game, it means:
    - No more differencer between Russia and Britain. I don't think reducing flavour and difference between faction is the very smart, it would make the game more boring.
    - Necessity to add many units to each faction so they could all do virtually anything. Like adding Cuirassier to Britain, and it's a lot of work.
    - Developping a new type of unit requires time to create a "tradition". I don't see how Prussia could in 10 years develop a naval tradition sufficient to make 1st rate.
    - I don't want to make "fantasy" units

    So instead we use another approach. With the regional recruitment, a faction can expand its capabilities by conquering a region and then recruit local forces here.

    For example, Prussia can recruit only a small navy. But if it captures Denmark or the Netherlands, then it gain access to the Danish and Dutch shipyard and shipbuilders, and it can recruit better ships in these regions.

  18. #18
    Biggus Splenus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Ah yes, the "what if" factor that makes Total War so great. The problem is that to implement all the "what if" factors is almost impossible and would take a serious amount of time and dedication. Steph has already made a good one though, like the "Occupied Units" system, a great AoR.

    EDIT: Also, This campaign will only go for 10 years, and the reforms you previously mentioned wouldn't be plausible for this time period, especially the Ottomans replacing their Janissaries with Professional armies (they tried it during the period, but totally failed)

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  19. #19
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    Beside, the Ottomans already have Nizam I Cedit.

  20. #20
    Hannarr's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Suggestions

    For example, Prussia can recruit only a small navy. But if it captures Denmark or the Netherlands, then it gain access to the Danish and Dutch shipyard and shipbuilders, and it can recruit better ships in these regions.
    That's part of what i meant. Russia and Britain would never be the same. There's no doubt Prussia had the potential make larger ships. but didn't have the facilities or means to do it at that point.
    I don't think Russia should have the same quality riflemen as Britain, i just wasn't sure if they would be included as you haven't published the Russian land forces yet. and with the Ottomans, there were many mutinies and rebellions before they were finally disbanded, and the Nizam-ı Cedid established. maybe the sultan was prompted to do it sooner.

    Also, is it possible to make major Cities/capitols like Stockholm, Madrid, Istanbul ect. have 5 slots so they can have unique faction buildings, it seems obsurd to me that regional powers such as these are not on the same footing as Berlin, Vienna and Paris.

    The mod looks good though, i'll be trying it when its released.
    Last edited by Hannarr; October 25, 2012 at 06:23 AM.

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