javelin throwing while running/charging needs to be implemented

[RedGuard]

Peltasts and skirmishers need to be able to throw thier javs at enemy while retreating back to friendly lines and charging soldiers shouldn't have to stop for five seconds to throw javs.

[Altimis]

I think its good idea

Also this feature is not hard to make

[Telemachos]

It will be a nice improvement to the game in rome peltasts where only useful as meat shields if the enemy had any cav
Mine poor peltasts risen down by stupid lancers before they had thrown any sticks

[krisslanza]

It's a gameplay balance thing. It's no fun if you can just micromanage ranged units to keep running away and killing people until they run out of ammo.

I'm looking at you gun generals in Shogun 2.

[RedGuard]

It's a gameplay balance thing. It's no fun if you can just micromanage ranged units to keep running away and killing people until they run out of ammo.

I'm looking at you gun generals in Shogun 2.

but that is the whole point of skirmishers

[Prof]

Wouldn't hurt the gameplay too much...as long as they are suffering from precision penatlies while moving.

[Altimis]

It's a gameplay balance thing. It's no fun if you can just micromanage ranged units to keep running away and killing people until they run out of ammo.

I'm looking at you gun generals in Shogun 2.

That supposed to be

And its logical, skirmish is more likely to equipped lightly gears so they can fast-hit-run

there no way heavier infantry units can catch them

[krisslanza]

That supposed to be

And its logical, skirmish is more likely to equipped lightly gears so they can fast-hit-run

there no way heavier infantry units can catch them

It might be realistic, but it's also incredibly annoying. Unless you find the idea of a cavalry unit running around, kiting all your troops until near rout, when he's the ONLY UNIT left against like a thousand troops and nearly winning because you can't catch units like that.

Javelin users may not be the same, but it still promotes annoying kiting tactics which are less about strategy and more about abusing the speed of units to make them incredibly hard to kill until they run out of ammo.

[emperor77]

It might be realistic, but it's also incredibly annoying. Unless you find the idea of a cavalry unit running around, kiting all your troops until near rout, when he's the ONLY UNIT left against like a thousand troops and nearly winning because you can't catch units like that.

Javelin users may not be the same, but it still promotes annoying kiting tactics which are less about strategy and more about abusing the speed of units to make them incredibly hard to kill until they run out of ammo.

So what you are saying is that skirmishers should be completely inept at skirmishing?

[krisslanza]

So what you are saying is that skirmishers should be completely inept at skirmishing?

They shouldn't have to be reduced to an annoying kiting tactic. Meaning they shouldn't be able to outrun infantry all day until they run out of ammo. It might be "realistic", but it's hardly fun when you play against someone who micros the crap out of them and just whittles you to pieces as a result.

Not to mention, Total War isn't hardcore realism anyway. Those are Paradox games, where battles are all a bunch of calculations and numbers.

[Yayattasa]

Javelin users may not be the same, but it still promotes annoying kiting tactics which are less about strategy and more about abusing the speed of units to make them incredibly hard to kill until they run out of ammo.

Liek cavalry archers? That's how they were used historically. The enemy must learn how to evolve if such disadvantages are present.
It happened several times in history (peltasts, cavalry archers, cataphracts, phalanges, pike and musket, cannons, are all examples of how the military advances).

[Dunadd]

It's a gameplay balance thing. It's no fun if you can just micromanage ranged units to keep running away and killing people until they run out of ammo.

I'm looking at you gun generals in Shogun 2.

Horse-archers and javelin mounted cavalry can already fire while moving and are far better at skirmishing than foot skirmishers would be even if they could do the same so i don't see how you can possibly say this is about game balance.

If you bring some light cavalry, archers, slingers or artillery to the battle even a horse-archer army won't be a problem. An army entirely made up entirely of skirmishers will get wiped out by a well balanced army with a mixture of light and heavy infantry, archers or slingers and light and heavy cavalry units in it.

And the change wouldn't apply to foot archers or foot slingers - they still couldn't move and fire - only javelin or heavy throwing weapon armed foot troops could fire while moving - and for heavy throwing weapon armed ones only while charging.
This would make the game more historically accurate and more fun without any damage to game-play balance at all.

As for complaints about "kiting" and "exploiting their greater move" you're applying MMO roleplaying game concepts to a mass battle game, where they don't apply. You have a mixture of different troop types with different functions in every ancient and Rome Total War army. The entire point of many ancient light infantry and light cavalry units was their ability to skirmish against enemies that would massacre them if they caught them in melee. They were good against heavier armoured or closer formation slower enemy infantry. If they got hit by archers or artillery or enemy cavalry they were dead.

[Argon Viper]

As for complaints about "kiting" and "exploiting their greater move" you're applying MMO roleplaying game concepts to a mass battle game, where they don't apply. You have a mixture of different troop types with different functions in every ancient and Rome Total War army. The entire point of many ancient light infantry and light cavalry units was their ability to skirmish against enemies that would massacre them if they caught them in melee. They were good against heavier armoured or closer formation slower enemy infantry. If they got hit by archers or artillery or enemy cavalry they were dead.

I think this is the main point that needs to be taken into account when people complain about skirmishers running ahead of infantry and throwing javelins behind them: that's how it was supposed to work If you want to run down skirmishers, you use cavalry, if you want to slaughter them from range, you use archers. Infantry just have to suffer the javelins until they run out.

[torongill]

I'm all for javelineers running individually forward from a safe position so that they can discharge their javelins. It's supposed to be this chaotic movement that's characteristic of skirmishers throughout history. Move forward, then run, throw, run back out of range of the enemy javelins.
I also agree that javelin-throwing infantry should be able to throw their javelins on the move and not wait for what seems an eternity to release a volley.

However, for realism's sake (and this will actually make skirmishers more valuable) cavalry should not be able to run through friendly units just like that. It shouldn't, it should leave those units badly shaken, out of order and formation and suffering casualties from friendly stampeding. Time and again routing cavalry(elephants and chariots included) passing through their own infantry have caused routs on their own. I think we should have that. It would stop cavalry rushing in from behind the infantry lines to attack the enemy skirmishers. It would stop cavalry passing through the whole infantry block on the double and emerge on the other side unscathed. It would stop routing cavalry passing through friendly infantry and not leave holes in the formation and no dead and dying in their wake.

However, to keep things real, skirmishers should not be able to abuse the run-pursue-charge problem that was in RTW(I haven't played the next games, maybe it was fixed). What I mean is this - cavalry chasing skirmishers could not charge them, as long as the skirmishers were in "skirmish mode". They would start running back and the cavalry would start pursuing them(losing its charge bonus), at which point the skirmishers would turn back and charge the cavalry. That should not happen. Skirmishers are very vulnerable to moving cavalry, since their practically lack of formation lets the cavalry gallop through them and attack them at will.

[Bethencourt]

I do not get the idea. Can you throw a javelin while charging and not only one man but one hundred doing it at the same time? Wouldn't it be a mess? Maybe the actual Rome animation could be quicker.

[Altimis]

I do not get the idea. Can you throw a javelin while charging and not only one man but one hundred doing it at the same time? Wouldn't it be a mess? Maybe the actual Rome animation could be quicker.

he mean Peltasts and skirmishers

and I think "Charging" he means is this

running to foe and thrown then running back

[RedGuard]

he mean Peltasts and skirmishers

and I think "Charging" he means is this

running to foe and thrown then running back

actually what I meant by charging is when some units charge they should be able to throw their javs in formation while the rest of their unit is still charging only throw over their advancing troops. This would be great for gauls and iberians. also some units like legionaries should be more disciplined when being pelted by peltasts(Puns are fun) but some men should run independently out of formations trying to chase them(similar to berserk mode without the stupid bonus) and dependent on how disciplined that unit is will determine if that unit gets back in formation or you have about 200 guys spread all over the damn place ready to get run over by cav.(would be annoying for levy troops for the player but would be accurate) this coupled with turning down the damage inflicted by skirmishers would be more historical and would be closer to what thier historical role was, which was to harass, break up formations(slightly) and in the case of less armoured peltasti run behind enemy lines. But what you said above is also doable and should be put in also. And for the guy that complains that skirmishers will be more annoying than they already are, unless you are remembering playing arcade mode, the skirmishers only had about for rounds of javs until they ran out and could easily be countered by archers or HA and could be run down by even the heaviest cav.

also in addition i suggest they tire easily but have more endurance, ie they should not be able to run forever(like in RTW) but should be able to sprint from position easily if you have a oh moment.

[Ichon]

The best way to throw a javelins is take a few steps forward before release. I am not sure about 4 or more ranks doing it but the Romans must have had some method. Cavalry with javelins can throw on the move, would be nice if infantry could as well though perhaps being forced to drop out of formation to do so which means if you mistime the throw against charging enemy your legion about to take some heavy casualties. It might also be interesting if javelin released by moving units, cavalry especially but maybe infantry as well have higher attack.

[Augustus Scipius]

I fully agree. I missed the ability for soldiers to fire their weapons while marching or charging in Empire/Napoleon/FotS. I think it was rather well implemented in RTW, although the centuria always stopped before throwing their pila. It would be awesome for missile units to run, take a few quick steps when throwing a javelin and then continue charging into melee. Although Romans for one fought in a tight formation, they could still march quickly forward, stop, and throw their pila in unison. It would look extremely cool and effective.

[torongill]

In reference to the legionaries and well, practically everyone else, it doesn't need to be a single massive salvo. On the contrary, a stream of javelins, each rank throwing theirs in rapid succession and then stopping for a second to draw swords, would probably have a better chance of weakening the enemy. That way you don't need a very long separation between ranks and there is time for the whole formation to draw swords, because no enemy will continue to charge while there are javelins flying towards him.

@krisslanza, I'm sure it must have been deeply frustrating to you, but they should. Having cavalry helps a lot.
P.S. Practically every type of heavy infantry suffered when exposed unsupported to light infantry that can maneuver. Happened to the Spartans, happened to Caesar's legionaries, etc. Javelineers were good infantry, it's the modelling in RTW that made them almost useless in the pitched battles.