Where are the other countries?

[The_Dark_Legion]

I heard sweden is gonna be in the game but i dont remember anything on the map about norway and sweden. they were known back in the medieval times. but id like to see America in the map!

[Markas]

I heard sweden is gonna be in the game but i dont remember anything on the map about norway and sweden. they were known back in the medieval times

I'll bet alot of people relieved of their gold, loved ones and their lives knew about Norway and Sweden!

BTW I'm refering to the Vikings....

[removeduser_487563287433]

Both Sweden and Norway were of course well known and well established countries at this point in history.

[Hansa]

Never heard of Sweden being in the game, do you have a source for this? Anyway, Denmark is in and Denmark was the most important Scandinavian country in medieval times. Sweden emerged in the high period around 1200, as Swedens pagan religion and culture made a viable large state formation difficult. At the time of the starting date of MTW2, there were 2 Scandianvian states: Norway and Denmark. the territory wich was to become medieval Sweden was divided into 3 differnet realms (If I remember correctly).

[smoke]

I don't think Sweden or Norway are in. Perhaps your confusing them with another country, Denmark?

On a side note: I do hope Sicily is playable. I used to have great fun with them in MTW.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

No, Sweden and Norway aren't in.
They were both quite puny overall during this time compared to the Danes.

[Maethius]

Sweden only kicked in during the 1700 century and only lasted for a hundered years. Norway became a Danish "province" after the viking era.

[Barbarian-Bob]

I remember a thread over at the official forums about Norway, and how they should be included in the game. The poster argued that Norway had (one of) the most powerful navies in Europe, that there was once a Norwegian Holy Roman Emperor (they were elected), and that Norwegians were the only ones to ever conquer England (York).

IMHO, it would be justified to have a Norwegian faction, but the thing is there are a lot more and important factions already waiting in line on CA's and modder's "to-do-list" so to speak.

[Hansa]

I remember a thread over at the official forums about Norway, and how they should be included in the game. The poster argued that Norway had (one of) the most powerful navies in Europe, that there was once a Norwegian Holy Roman Emperor (they were elected), and that Norwegians were the only ones to ever conquer England (York).

IMHO, it would be justified to have a Norwegian faction, but the thing is there are a lot more and important factions already waiting in line on CA's and modder's "to-do-list" so to speak.

Norway did not become a Danish province after the viking era, but after the forced introduction of protestantism by the Danish crown, because this process destroyed the power of Norwegian nobles. Before this the Danish king acted as king of both Denmark and Norway (something he had been since the late thirteenth century), in both countries he had to relate to a strong counsil of nobles. Formally though under the king of Denmark, Norway was never under Denmark formally, but in reality Norway was a Danish colony between 1534 and 1812. In the middle ages both Denmark and Sweden were occasionally under the Norwegian crown (early/high period), sometimes it was different, but the kings never had supreme power and each state acted as a seperate entity, there was also a period of Scandinavian unity, (Kalmar union), but again only in name, as Swedish elites never accepted being under the Danish crown.

Norway never invaded England during the timespan of MTW2, the last invasion attempt was in 1066, but the Norwegian army was surprised by the English while resting, and attacked before they could get their chainmail armour on, subsequently they lost the battle (Stamford Bridge). Later that year William the Bastard, duke of Normandy (decendant of Rolf the Ganger from western Norway) invaded England from the south, although never proven it has been speculated that the Norwegian and Norman invasion was coordinated.

As for the Norwegian navy, yes it was probably strong, but not in the late period. Norway was quite sucessful until the Black plague, among Norwegian posessions until the late era were virtually all of the islands of northern and western Scotland, the isle of Man, Iceland, the south east coast of Greenland, and large parts of modern Sweden (border form Norway down to Gothenburg and most of central Sweden, Swedish territory lost after medieval period). Also Bergen was by far the biggest Scandinavian town having a population of up to ten thousand around 1200 (though probably not more than seven), at this time Paris had a population of twenty thousand people making it the biggest in Northern Europe, London ten to fifteen thousand. Anyway a well traveled cardinal from Rome reports that Bergen had the biggest harbour he had ever seen in his report to the pope, supporting the naval power statement. Norway is a pretty big country and before the black plague most historians claim that its population was around 400.000, the plague killed about half, resulting in a breakdown of scociety and Norways importance reduced to nothing, the counrty acted independently though until 1534.

EDIT:

IMHO, it would be justified to have a Norwegian faction, but the thing is there are a lot more and important factions already waiting in line on CA's and modder's "to-do-list" so to speak.

I completely agree with you. Norway should not be added if that means ignoring states like Lithuania and Bohemia, they deserve a place though,and if the mod limit is 30, a realism mod should fix this

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Well the navy was before the game starts and so was their attempt to conquer England if I remember correctly.
It is kinda like adding in Sweden because of what we did 100 years after the game ends.
You have to look at what they did during this period that the game covers and when you do you can see that Norway was relatively weak, weak from civil war and as Maethius said became a danish "province".
And as I said before Sweden wasn't all that either during this period and was until like over 80 years after the game ends with the entry of the 30 year war that we showed some muscles.

When it comes to medieval times then Sweden and Norway will have to wait far back in the line because there are actually factions that were more important that aren't in and should be added first.

[Barbarian-Bob]

The union didn't start until late 14th century, and the "decline" of Norway didn't really start until the Black Plague, so IMO they're eligible for inclusion in the early era. But like both of us said, there are other countries waiting in line, so...

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

True but the civil war started around 1130 and lasted over a 100 years.
This is considered by some to be the start of their decline.
The plague was pretty much the last nail in the coffin.

[Hansa]

True but the civil war started around 1130 and lasted over a 100 years.
This is considered by some to be the start of their decline.
The plague was pretty much the last nail in the coffin.

My oversimplification of Norwegian power in mediveal area forgot to mention the rebellions, so thanks. As for the asssumption that they were the start of the decline, probably correct, and by probably I mean very probably. As for the black plague being the nail in the coffin, I don't think there would be a coffin for Norway without the Black death. The Union with Denmark would probably have lasted, but Im not sure Norway would ever be a ''de facto'' colony'', but a weaker part in a union. Anyway, just by looking at the Norwegian king lineage during the rebellion time, shows the instability caused by the rebeellions, so you were right in pointing them out.

BTW, If the union with Denmark had'nt lasted Norway would probably have been conquered anyway by you guys (see from userbar that you're Swedish). Nice going during the 1700's, really impressive for such a scarecly populated country.

[Axdahl]

Is it just me, or did this thread take a little trip to off-topic land?
Anyway, Norway had its very best period from 793 (the attack on Lindisfarne) to 1066 (Defeat at Stamford Bridge). But dispite that the game begins in 1080, Norway did not go down before 1349 (Black Plague) and Norway was a powerful country in those 300 years, and it happened so much In Norway during the Medieval II gametime, so I think Norway absolutely deserves a place on the factionlist.

Just think about it - First you go plunder other countries and conquer other parts of europe. Then the black plague comes, and you try to make the wheels still go round, before you (in the end of the game) must use all your power to hold the head above the surface and stop the other scandinavian countries from invading you. ..... Total war!!!

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

But dispite that the game begins in 1080, Norway did not go down before 1349 (Black Plague) and Norway was a powerful country in those 300 years, and it happened so much In Norway during the Medieval II gametime, so I think Norway absolutely deserves a place on the factionlist.

While true that the plague was pretty much the end, Norway was not powerful.
And I said before, the civil war weakened Norway alot which allowed Denmark to become the leading kingdom.
After the civil war Norway was weak which is too be expected after such a long war.
And 100 years after that, the plague hits and that's the "end".
But Hansa is probably correct(I say probably because you never know) that if the plague didn't hit then Norway would have recovered and been more stronger then they were(once again just guessing).
So sorry Norway wasn't a powerful kingdom for 300 years, more like 50 years and thus does not deserve a faction slot and will have to wait for the more important factions(which there are alot) to be added in first.

To Hansa:

Where these rebellions before or after the civil war ??
I'm guessing before but you never know.

[Hansa]

To Hansa:

Where these rebellions before or after the civil war ??
I'm guessing before but you never know.

By rebellions I meant the civil wars. Sorry for being unclear.

Anyway, the Wiki source is also a oversimplyfication. Norway was not really a state when Harald the Fairhair united the country under his rule. This is generally considered the birth of Norway, but not whern you look behind the beating of all other small reigns and gaining status as supreme ruler of the land. The reason is that Harald never obtained any monopoly of violence, or taxes or any sort of primitive central rule over the country as a whole. Norway is not considered a state by modern historians until around 1000 a.d. As generally occurred in Europe at the time, state formation went hand in hand with christianisation as christendom provided excellent hierarcical structures for it.

That being so, this thread was originally about wether Sweden was in the game, they aren't, neither is Norway, and these countries are by far the most important left out during the games time span, hopefully a 30 slot faction limit will be in, so that some deserving factions can be modded in, taking i not account that the Mongols and Timurids will probably be emerging, and that we can replace the American factions with others (+perhaps the Timurids who were'nt that important for European history) , Norway and Sweden will hopefully be in when the realism mods are out, together with other factions. There are currently 21 official factions of which 17 are playable, (most are Western European) for the official list check out CAs official page.

[Axdahl]

Well.... As I remember, there was never a civil war. Knut/Canute the great (king of Denmark and England) invaded norway in 1028, and the people in norway accepted him. The king (Olav Haraldson) of norway then was driven out of the country, but came back in 1030 with an army consisting of foreign soldiers. So actually you can see it in different ways:
King canute had the Norwegian people in his back, but he was danish. Then again, Olav Haraldson was Norwegian, but his army consisted of people he gathered on his way from russia to norway.
But this confirms it - Norway was a very unstable and unorganized country at that time, but if you could get everyone on your side, I think its no doubt that Norway could be a very powerful kingdom. There were great battles (most known Stiklestad in 1030) and ofcourse it weakened Norway, but I think that it was more that the Norwegian people wanted peace and order after the Viking era, and if they would, Norway could be a kingdom with military might.

Some guessing in my post too

[Barbarian-Bob]

A good read here for anyone interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_norway

The maps at the bottom are very nice. Love how the first map is completely wrong.