Ideas for very immersive NAVAL BATTLES

[panzerschreck]

Even if naval battles have been improved since ETW and NTW, a lot of players still think that TW naval battles need a lot of improvments to be really interesting.
I love naval battles and I think a lot of things need to be done to make them really immersive and epic.
here are my ideas:

1/ Ramming could be controled in first person to make it more deadly

2/ several effects of ramming ; different dammages depending on your speed, of the angle, of the size of your boat... So different animations for the ship that has been hit.

3/A lot of work need to be done on the soldiers themselves, in the previous TW, they are like statues on their boat: soldiers have to react under fire: running, protecting (crouch or shields), replying with their javelins or bows, officers saying orders...

4/ soldiers must react with all their weapons, javelins bows, grapnels for boarding, balistas etc.

5/when the boat is in fire, special animations for the soldiers with fire over them, mast falling. Like repairing, you could stop your boat to try to stop fire, soldiers could take water with buckets etc.

6/Surrendering: that's a big point: in the previous TW, when a boat surrenders, it stay on the middle of the battle, with men inside standing, again, like statues. These boats could be rallied by their floot or could be taken by your men by boarding: half of your crew would take the ship and use it against the ennemy. A proper animation has to be created for men surrendering: kneeling, throwing their weapons, imploring... Surrendering has to be worked to be part of the tactics in battle (rally or capture)

7/ Possibility of breaking the rows of the ennemy with your own boat (that means that your own rows have to be put inside by your rowers)

8/ a galley can go backwards.

9/the battlefield: pieces of wood of different sizes floating after ramming, or a ship that has sunk. Corpses floating, men swimming or trying to swim. Men drawning.

10/Falling into the water: some men could fall into the water when there is ramming against their ship. Men could fall when they are hit by catapults or arrows, javelins, in melee when boarding.

11/ Boarding: in the previous TW, boarding melee are not as much impressive than on the land, it has to be more violent, a more desesperated fight.

12/men in the water: they could have the ability of trying to reach an allied ship and to be rescued (increasing the number of crew of the ship) or you could have an option in the ship to throw ropes to the men that are in water. So, you could also kill ennemy soldiers in the water with arrows or rows (see battle of Salamine).

13/the maps: they could be reefs where your boats could sink. There could be also sandbars where your could be blocked. Something about everybody is dreaming: a map with an assault against an island.

14/when ships hit an other ship, they should have dammages: so you could push a ship against rocks near the land or against an allied ship. In a narrow pass, it could be interesting making ennemy ships percuting .
In fact, what made me think in this feature is the battle of Salamine where persian ships were trapped in a narrow pass by the greeks and dammaged themselves, hitting each others. In Rome II we will have also naval battles in ports , near the coasts, near cities, some ships will certainly pushed against walls or rocks, I think they must have dammages. It could be interesting for ramming, you push a ship towards rocks or walls knowing that the dammages will be more important and deadly.
In the map carthage for example (trailer), we saw carthaginian ships trying to go out the port to attack, if you attack precisely at the moment they are trying to go out the port, you could block them, push them in order they hit each other and you could do more dammages to the fleet.

15/Sounds: ships in fire, rows, drums, orders, sails, ropes, yells etc.

16/rowers: as discussed in an other thread, rowers have to be there, usable in combat (for example a button available when there is only 20 % of your soldiers left, of course fighters of low value in comparison to real soldiers). If the fight is too unequal (against the all ennemy crew for example), the rowers will surrender without fighting. Special anim have to be there for rowers, when there is ramming, when the boat is sinking etc.

17/ the corvus for some roman ships, used against Carthaginians: it would add certainly a great feeling to boarding! It should be destroyable by catapults...

What do you think? Have you some others ideas for more immersive naval battles?

[torongill]

1/ Ramming could be controlled in first person to make it more deadly

I'm not really sure how that would work, but it's a good idea, since it will take it from the AI and will allow more accurate naval battles.

2/ several effects of ramming ; different damages depending on your speed, of the angle, of the size of your boat... So different animations for the ship that has been hit.

I will add to this damage to the attacker, depending on his size, build and aspect of attack. In other words if you have a bireme, ramming a sixer would be perilous, since your bireme cannot absorb the damage done and the sides of the sixer might very well be sturdier than your ship. On the other hand a big ship might have problems catching a small one, because the smaller ship can accelerate faster.

3/A lot of work need to be done on the soldiers themselves, in the previous TW, they are like statues on their boat: soldiers have to react under fire: running, protecting (crouch or shields), replying with their javelins or bows, officers saying orders...

If we want to make it realistic, then different behavior has to be implemented for different situations and different ways of fighting. What do I mean by that - on the trireme everybody was setting in order not to disturb the rowers and keep the balance of the ship and allow everybody to concentrate on ramming. On bigger ships, like the five and six and seven, it would be different, since the rowers would have to get used to the noise of marines and artillery, meaning that a quinquireme/pentera would need much more time to train for combat. I'd suggest that the bigger the ship, the longer it would have to wait before it's combat ready(and that means say one turn after completion for exercises and maneuver). Freshly built ships should be slower, less responsive and less seaworthy than their default value. The effect would be mitigated by how acquainted with naval and maritime matters your faction is.

4/ soldiers must react with all their weapons, javelins bows, grapnels for boarding, balistas etc.

Fully approve.

6/Surrendering: that's a big point: in the previous TW, when a boat surrenders, it stay on the middle of the battle, with men inside standing, again, like statues. These boats could be rallied by their floot or could be taken by your men by boarding: half of your crew would take the ship and use it against the ennemy. A proper animation has to be created for men surrendering: kneeling, throwing their weapons, imploring... Surrendering has to be worked to be part of the tactics in battle (rally or capture)

I'm not really sure how would we do that. In fact, iirc a lot of ship crews were murdered on the spot by the victors.

7/ Possibility of breaking the rows of the enemy with your own boat (that means that your own rows have to be put inside by your rowers)

That should be a viable tactic, basically equal to dismasting a sailing ship. But maybe not possible initially or at least you'd need some experience to do it correctly. I mean that for example if you try this the first time your ship is in a battle, some rowers might not react as fast and your ship will suffer damage, broken oars and injured and killed oarmen.

8/ a galley can go backwards.

Well that's a given, but again, speed and acceleration need to be connected to level of training.

9/the battlefield: pieces of wood of different sizes floating after ramming, or a ship that has sunk. Corpses floating, men swimming or trying to swim. Men drowning.

that would be awesome

10/Falling into the water: some men could fall into the water when there is ramming against their ship. Men could fall when they are hit by catapults or arrows, javelins, in melee when boarding.

Agree absolutely and they should drown. The chance of drowning should depend on the faction in general, weather, proximity to land and also equipment. In other words, an athenian rower would survive at least the initial bath. A Roman early legionary with a hamata should have the swimming abilities of a stone block.

11/ Boarding: in the previous TW, boarding melee are not as much impressive than on the land, it has to be more violent, a more desperate fight.

I think it will be, since it will be a waste not to use the fabulous animations in use on land. Big shields should be used to push and clear paths on the enemy ship. Was it Caesar? relating a story about a legionary, who right after boarding got his right arm cut off and used his scutum to batter the enemy and clear the deck.

12/men in the water: they could have the ability of trying to reach an allied ship and to be rescued (increasing the number of crew of the ship) or you could have an option in the ship to throw ropes to the men that are in water. So, you could also kill ennemy soldiers in the water with arrows or rows (see battle of Salamine)

.I agree and if I may add one thing - recovering men in the water and the bodies of your own dead would be a prerequisitte for victory. Failure to do so might send you in disgrace and outright kill you(Athenian generals after a victorious battle in the Peloponessian war)

13/the maps: they could be reefs where your boats could sink. There could be also sandbars where your could be blocked. Something about everybody is dreaming: a map with an assault against an island.

I'm not that sure about the reefs. Ancient ships didn't have much of a depth. The reconstructed trireme Olympias has a draught of 1.25m. The biggest ships might become victims of sandbars and reefs, but most wouldn't. And how would we decide to let one side know where there are shallows and the other not?

14/when ships are percuting one with an other, they should have damages: so you could push a ship against rocks near the land or against an allied ship. In a narrow pass, it could be interesting making ennemy ships percuting .

I'm not sure what you mean here, but I think ships clumped together should have a hard time disengaging, especially if they aren't experienced(battle of the Gulf of Corinth, 429, see Thucydides)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Peloponnesians arranged their ships in as big a circle as they could – bows
outward, sterns inward – without leaving the enemy space to row through. They
also placed inside the circle the small craft that had accompanied them and the five
fastest-rowing ships, so that, standing by a short distance away, they could row out
if the enemy approached anywhere. The Athenians, arranged in single file, kept
rowing around them in a circle and hemming them into a narrow space, rowing
right next to them. Phormio had pre-arranged with his men, however, not to attack
until he gave the signal. For he hoped that the enemy would not remain in order, as
foot-soldiers would have on land, but that the ships would fall upon each other and
the small craft add to the confusion; if, moreover, the breeze should blow up from
the gulf, which he was awaiting as he rowed round and which usually came around
dawn, they would lose their cool in no time at all. He thought that the initiative
was his to take whenever he wished. As the breeze began to blow and the ships,
already in a narrow space, were thrown into confusion both by the wind and the
small craft, ship fell upon ship and they tried to push them apart with poles. The
Peloponnesian rowers employed such cries and warnings and abuse of each other
that they paid no heed to the commands or the time-keepers, and since they were
inexperienced they were unable to keep the blades clear of the rough water, and
so they rendered the ships less obedient to the captains. At that crucial moment
Phormio gave the signal. The Athenians fell upon them; first they sank one of the
commanders’ ships and then they destroyed whichever of the others they came
upon, and they brought it about that none of them, in their confusion, began to
fight, but they fled to Patras and Dyme in Achaea. The Athenians pursued them
and, after capturing twelve ships and picking up most of the men who had been
on them, they sailed off to Molykreon. They set up a trophy on Rhion, dedicated
a ship to Poseidon, and returned to Naupactus.

16/rowers: as discussed in an other thread, rowers have to be there, usable in combat (for example a button available when there is only 20 % of your soldiers left, of course fighters of low value in comparison to real soldiers). If the fight is too unequal (against the all ennemy crew for example), the rowers will surrender without fighting. Special anim have to be there for rowers, when there is ramming, when the boat is sinking etc.

I don't think rowers should be used in combat, unless they are given some equipment to participate in an attack. Imagine how could naked unarmed men to fight against a fully armored enemy with a shield and sword/spear in his hand, when they'd have to leave their posts and emerge on the deck one by one. Nobody's that brave.

What do you think? Have you some others ideas for more immersive naval battles?

sunk ships shouldn't sink completely. The galleys had practically no balast and were extremely light(they had to be, since they were moved by muscle power). So even after being rammed, they sank more or less until the second level of rowing benches. In other words they could be towed by the winner and reused. Ramming achieved no so much a "catastrophic kill", as much as a "mission kill", since the rammed galley would have a lower structural integrity, it wouldn't be able to be rowed fast and at least in the moment of ramming quite a few rowers would be injured or killed. What that means for naval combat? Even if your ship is rammed, you could continue fighting if you have a superior number of marines and in fact if you could grapple the ship that rammed you, you could board it and take it as prize. So another complication of combat - if the enemy has more marines than you, you want to ram, but you have to be very careful not to dally around and be boarded.

[panzerschreck]

So another complication of combat - if the enemy has more marines than you, you want to ram, but you have to be very careful not to dally around and be boarded.

I agree with that, i think in that case boarding should be difficult for the ship being rammed, but possible with grapnels, preventing the attacker to row backwards.
But I don't think it's easy to put that in the game

[torongill]

I agree with that, i think in that case boarding should be difficult for the ship being rammed, but possible with grapnels, preventing the attacker to row backwards.
But I don't think it's easy to put that in the game

Difficult, not impossible. Basically the idea is that if the ramming ship comes too fast, there's a chance that she will get stuck in its victim and also that it will require more time for the frontal momentum to disappear and the oarmen may need more time to recover from the impact in order to start backing oars. Plus, maneuvering and ramming the enemy amidships was not that easy a task, especially in restricted waters with lack of space. Furthermore, if the enemy was sure in his ships, he might meet you head-on, in which case it would be like two rams(male sheep) hitting one another, sometimes resulting in twisted prows, rams and destroyed structural members. When such collisions happened, it was a fair occurence of both ships getting stuck together and (just imagine this bravery)marines crossing over to conquer the enemy ship. This was the roman way, hit the enemy ship practically head-on(just a little to the side), drop the corvus and clamp the enemy, then send in the marines(1st century, 1st cohort, 1st legion, "First of the First", out of Campus Martius )
You should watch these clips

And when watch them, remember that this is in travel mode. In battle mode there would be leather screens, stopping air or light and creating a claustrophobic darkness and uncertainty.

The "turn and ram" maneuver would be recommended if your oarmen and helmsmen were better and your ships lighter. A lighter ship would be able to make a U-turn much faster and tighter and then accelerate to ramming speed faster than a worse-trained ship and heavier one. You could combine your ships in pairs, one piercing the enemy line, turning and then attacking, while the second goes forward to either ram the opposing enemy ship head-on or try to smash their oars in and then look for another target.

In fact, I've drawn a rough outline of how a battle might turn out between a lighter and better trained fleet and a heavier one. Basically a modification of the periplus and diekplus maneuvers.

Number 6 shears off the portside oars of 6, turns and looks for a victim. Number 5 evades 5 by faster accel and attacks 6, which is practically helpless in the water and has turned to one side due to its starboard oars still rowing. 5, which has tried to hit 5 but was too slow tries to turn left in an attempt to help 6 and is in turn hit in the starboard rear quarter by 4, which has successfully evaded the attack of 4. 3 can either ram 3 head-on or pass to her left, forcing her to protect herself, which would leave 3 open to an attack from 2, which can then pierce the line and turn around to look for a target. 1 at that time is going left, luring 1 and probably 2 to a stern chase, which it can win because of its better maneuverability and acceleration.

Actually now that I look at it again, 3 can be doubled on if it has lost too much time and has concentrated on 3 because 6 can attack her from the portside quarter.

Well, it will be a bear and a half to program, but if they manage to do it the action will be fabulous.

[Barristan Selmy]

I completely agree and would love to see things suggested on the 2 above posts.

[The Mongol]

I imagine the animations in general for soldiers will be improved/more immersive considering they're pushing the 'adding personality to battles and soldiers' feature. Some of what you said already seems to be in screenshots we've seen (and is already in Shogun/Napoleon) such as the drowning/overboard men and debris scattered throughout the sea.

I don't know much about rowers in combat or what the procedure was if a ship surrendered so I can't say much on that, though I do think rowers would be pretty useless in combat, and should be, against your average soldier.

[Ichon]

Will ships surrender in RTW2 ? It makes sense in later eras but most naval fights in this time in history were to the death, or enslavement. Maybe special case only for civil wars?

[torongill]

Will ships surrender in RTW2 ? It makes sense in later eras but most naval fights in this time in history were to the death, or enslavement. Maybe special case only for civil wars?

IIRC when ships that hadn't yet engaged saw the fortunes turn against them, they ran. Since the oarmen of the already engaged ships would've been bone-tired after the battle, pursuit wasn't that common. Plus, effective pursuit could be done only when both hunter and prey are at comparative levels of fitness and training as well as the pursuer having superior numbers and employing pack tactics. By that I mean the following. I remember reading that ramming speed could be sustained for a few minutes, but that cruising speed, which was something like two or three knots lower could be sustained for long periods of time. So that means that a faster trireme ship could be used to threaten the fleeing ship and tire out the enemy oarmen, while the rest of the pack follows at sustainable speed.

However I don't think that was used a lot. It simply wasn't needed. If you manage to turn the odds, that means you can concentrate on finishing off the enemy that cannot disengage and in effect you can deal a finishing blow to the enemy navy. Ships were expensive and their maintenance and crew training was both expensive and time-consuming. By defeating even say half of the enemy force you could ensure naval superiority for quite a long time and in most cases for the duration of conflict, since few states in the pre-macedonian empire age could reequip their fleet and retrain crews.

The fact is that after the battle of cape Ecnomus the Roman navy ruled the sea around Sicily. The best that could happen for As a matter of fact they should've gone and defeated the Carthaginian forces in Sicily, because that would've either triggered an outright surrender from the Carthaginians, or a relief expedition, which was the best news for the victorious Roman navy and the war could've ended twelve years earlier.

[Ichon]

IIRC when ships that hadn't yet engaged saw the fortunes turn against them, they ran. Since the oarmen of the already engaged ships would've been bone-tired after the battle, pursuit wasn't that common. Plus, effective pursuit could be done only when both hunter and prey are at comparative levels of fitness and training as well as the pursuer having superior numbers and employing pack tactics. By that I mean the following. I remember reading that ramming speed could be sustained for a few minutes, but that cruising speed, which was something like two or three knots lower could be sustained for long periods of time. So that means that a faster trireme ship could be used to threaten the fleeing ship and tire out the enemy oarmen, while the rest of the pack follows at sustainable speed.

However I don't think that was used a lot. It simply wasn't needed. If you manage to turn the odds, that means you can concentrate on finishing off the enemy that cannot disengage and in effect you can deal a finishing blow to the enemy navy. Ships were expensive and their maintenance and crew training was both expensive and time-consuming. By defeating even say half of the enemy force you could ensure naval superiority for quite a long time and in most cases for the duration of conflict, since few states in the pre-macedonian empire age could reequip their fleet and retrain crews.

The fact is that after the battle of cape Ecnomus the Roman navy ruled the sea around Sicily. The best that could happen for As a matter of fact they should've gone and defeated the Carthaginian forces in Sicily, because that would've either triggered an outright surrender from the Carthaginians, or a relief expedition, which was the best news for the victorious Roman navy and the war could've ended twelve years earlier.

"Surrender" Not talking about flee/rout. Well I am not sure if Carthage wouldn't have been able to raise another fleet if pushed after a loss but a big difference between Carthage and Rome was how taxes were accessed.

The point I was making is that capturing ship is more difficult in this era because also need crew for the ships- sailing ships require much less crew especially for a short voyage compared to trireme/galleys. So hopefully not every battle will end with half a dozen captured ships added to your own fleet.

[torongill]

"Surrender" Not talking about flee/rout. Well I am not sure if Carthage wouldn't have been able to raise another fleet if pushed after a loss but a big difference between Carthage and Rome was how taxes were accessed.

The point I was making is that capturing ship is more difficult in this era because also need crew for the ships- sailing ships require much less crew especially for a short voyage compared to trireme/galleys. So hopefully not every battle will end with half a dozen captured ships added to your own fleet.

I know of a few cases of ships/fleets surrendering, but that was in the civil war(Caesar vs Pompeus). I suppose surrendering could be implemented if the culture of two factions is similar, i.e. macedonian fleet vs athenian or rhodian vs other hellenistic faction. But if for example Roman vs Carthaginian, not so much.

That's why I was talking about fleeing, you surrender if you can't escape, which wasn't the usual case. Also iirc there wasn't a universal "striking of the colors" equivalent.

I want to say something else. I don't think that the corvus seriously endangered the stability of the ship. I don't think it was the reason the Romans lost their fleets in storms. How else can we explain the fact that both earlier and later ships were loaded with artillery and with towers and did not capsize? No, I think the reason Rome lost its fleets was more due to the actual stability ships in that age and maybe the fact that they were loaded with equipment and men and masts and sails, etc. That would've made them top-heavy, but even a stripped-down trireme/quinquereme was a small and narrow ship with a shallow draught. There was a very good reason why nobody travelled in winter and why Caesar's crossing the Adriatic to transport his men to Greece was considered very bold.

[Totalheadache]

Great ideas in this thread. Didnt know about the gangplank ship, ingenious.

[Augustus Scipius]

Absolutely love your ideas, especially the first person control over the ship. It would add so much depth and excitement to sea battles as well as making manoeuvres the AI could never manage possible.

[Aurelius Silvanus Tacitus]

I would love to see this features present in TWR2 especilly 8,9,10,11 and 12, but I would want an option that would enable me to rescue the enemy crews besides my own.

[Aeneas Veneratio]

Nice ideas! I would also like it, if allied ships could come in perilious confrontation with their own and ram eachother (destroying eachothers' oars for example) due to smart flanking tactics by the enemy.

[The Great Consul]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXh1tW16V-8

My thoughts on naval battles.

[panzerschreck]

I add to the ideas, the corvus, which seem to have played a big role in 260 av jc against Carthage, in the battle at Mylae:
http://www.livius.org/cn-cs/corvus/corvus.html

[Destraex]

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=584425

Are you the same Panzer I am thinking of?

[Pinarius]

To make it short, I agree with most of torongill's answers, especially #13, since these kind of ships had a much smaller draught than the ones from later eras (especially those that were already in Empire, Napoleon and FotS).

model-ramming:


warships of the Romans in their own artwork:
http://www.romaeterna.org/galleria/sala1/index.html

[panzerschreck]

To make it short, I agree with most of torongill's answers, especially #13, since these kind of ships had a much smaller draught than the ones from later eras (especially those that were already in Empire, Napoleon and FotS).

model-ramming:


warships of the Romans in their own artwork:
http://www.romaeterna.org/galleria/sala1/index.html

a very good ramming!!! This model goes very fast, rowers are very well trained !

[Noif de Bodemloze]

I love these ideas. Lets CA see this!!!