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Thread: Can we influence our lives?

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    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Can we influence our lives?

    So I was wondering: Can people really influence their lives? At first, it seems that we really do, since it seems that we experience the effects of our actions. However, are our actions a result of purely free will, or are they just mere natural responses to certain stimuli, under specific conditions? We see people acting in different ways, some with pure instinct and others with more caution, however since we cannot replicate the exact conditions during which an action was taken, how can we possibly determine whether those approaches would lead to different results (different actions being taken)? And if the answer is in the middle, which means that our actions are a result of both individual will and environmental factors, where do we draw the line on how much we can influence our lives? I think that a line needs to be drawn if a man is to achieve areté. Otherwise men would either remain apathetic without any interest to pursue goals that would be achievable, contributing nothing to society or at least wasting his potential, or, he would be acting foolishly and without caution, by pursuing unattainable goals.

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    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Hoobs diong filsofy?

    In all seriousness, it is a good question that many struggle with. Knowing your Marxist tendencies, I am surprised you have not yet found a potential answer within Marx.

    While Marx understood the conditioned nature of our actions, he also thought that we have being for self, that we can consciously and creatively alter our environment. Animals, on the other hand, only take from nature what they need. They have no being for self.

    So yes, although our actions are ultimately conditioned, this does not detract from the fact that we do act consciously.

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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    This is what I've been thinking, however I amn not sure yet. Our actions are influenced by factors such as social conditions, however we can alter many things in our environment, as we can see from the course of human history. The question that remains (for my inexperienced mind, at least) is what is more influencing? Is it the environment or our will, and how can people lead their lives based on this? I can deduct, from observations, that different people would react differently in the same situations, and some argue that while some elements of our character are shaped by the environment there are genetic traits that make people predisposed to certain reactions (I am not well informed about the scientific research on the matter, but I have heard this opinion being expressed a lot, but of course it could be wrong). And in the end, what are the limits of our ability to act consciously? It has to be the environment, but where does the first obstacle appear? I think we need to specify these limits if we are to find a way to lead our lives, otherwise we face the dilemma described in my first post.

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    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Dialectics. Our environment does not simply determine us. We also determine our environment (i.e., nature). It is an interaction. Whichever one is more determining is relative, since there can never be one without the other. Certainly, nature can exist even if we don't exist, but in order to be modified by humans, it first of all needs humans, who are part of nature. But I'm rambling.

    Certainly there is genetics, etc., but this is nature too. Seeing yourself as separate from nature is only an abstraction, an objectification of yourself and nature.

    You ask what are the limits of our ability to act consciously? None. We can do what is doable. We can think what is thinkable. Etc. However, we cannot act beyond the given. As Joseph Dietzgen said, we cannot ask the eye to hear. Still, everything that is seeable can be seen. The only limits are what is given. So too is your environment. Your mind needs something to interact with. Thus, such material is its boundary. Asking for the mind to uncover things outside of this boundary is like asking the eye to hear.

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    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    You are basically dealing with constraints:

    -Socioeconomic ones.(roles, status, social class, salary, occupation etc.)

    -Cultural ones.(norms, habits, customs etc.)

    -Personality(your personal psychological makeup)

    -Biology(your genetical makeup and it's consecuences on your behavior/identity).

    As the great Ortega y Gasset once said ''Yo soy yo, y mi circunstancias''(''I am me and my circunstances''). Any action(individual) requires an actor and a situation, the rigid or flexible nature of the ''situation'' marks external constraints and their consecuences over those actions, the plasticity or irreflexible nature of the actor's mind conditions the existence of ''internal'' constraints to said action.

    I would argue that in general ''Socioeconomic'' constraints work as the ''external situation'' and Personality+Genetics play as the internal ones, with Culture being an ''inbetween'' that is directly derived from interaction(Socioeconomic System) yet is ''internalized'' by actors in a way that will profoundly condition Personality.

    But then yeah, there's individual agency, and that's a form of rationality(pounding and measuring the means, ends and results of one's action) that even if limited(by the obstacles set in those aforementioned constraints) is possible in accordance to the situation.

    Now if your question is about Individual Freedom then I can't answer...
    Last edited by Claudius Gothicus; October 09, 2012 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes. View Post
    So I was wondering: Can people really influence their lives? At first, it seems that we really do, since it seems that we experience the effects of our actions. However, are our actions a result of purely free will, or are they just mere natural responses to certain stimuli, under specific conditions?
    I have now and then tried to observe and analyse, how a thought of mine actually arises. I've not come to any satisfying conclusion yet.
    If I just try to not think of anything in an environment without any or much environmental influences (eg. my quiet flat; just lying or sitting there), thoughts and inner-monologues arise/start which I didn't initiate (at least willingly), but at the same time I'm sure that's me thinking, talking and pondering.

    I'm not sure if this contributes to the theme of this thread, but anyhow...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes. View Post
    We see people acting in different ways, some with pure instinct and others with more caution, however since we cannot replicate the exact conditions during which an action was taken, how can we possibly determine whether those approaches would lead to different results (different actions being taken)? And if the answer is in the middle, which means that our actions are a result of both individual will and environmental factors, where do we draw the line on how much we can influence our lives? I think that a line needs to be drawn if a man is to achieve areté. Otherwise men would either remain apathetic without any interest to pursue goals that would be achievable, contributing nothing to society or at least wasting his potential, or, he would be acting foolishly and without caution, by pursuing unattainable goals.
    Perhaps aiming to achieve arete or virtue... and working at it as much as possible to get there - and eventually getting there - is necessary to see such a line in retrospective? I don't know. Maybe it's not possible to know before one has been able to reach what the ancient Greeks called apatheia?


    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    Animals, on the other hand, only take from nature what they need. They have no being for self.
    How to do come to that conclusion? I've grown up with dogs and cats, and lived with dogs ever since, and I can't see that to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    So yes, although our actions are ultimately conditioned, this does not detract from the fact that we do act consciously.
    That's at least a paradox: "Actions are ultimately conditioned" (= causality), but "we do act consciously" ( = non-causality). What exactly do you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    The only limits are what is given. So too is your environment. Your mind needs something to interact with. Thus, such material is its boundary. Asking for the mind to uncover things outside of this boundary is like asking the eye to hear.
    Why? Isn't the mind (= being conscious) outside of any boundary?
    From what I've come to realize the mind can't really be the product of particles or any semi/para-physical potentials known from quantum physics. How could cells - how many ever - create a mind? Otherwise a grain of sand could have a mind, as it - in it's essence - it the same as the human brain -> a conglomerate of particles of a sun that imploded far away in the past.

    Can the mind be something else than an aseity? I'm not promoting any religion or religious idea here, as religious dogmas don't explain anything, but often - esp. (mono)theists ones - try to replace the urge to question things with superstition, an hierarchy or religious-politics.

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    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by SparksNow View Post
    That's at least a paradox: "Actions are ultimately conditioned" (= causality), but "we do act consciously" ( = non-causality). What exactly do you mean?
    Not necessarily, an actor does make a choice to arrive to certain ends but the avaible ends and the corresponding costs for each course of action derived from selecting ''an end and means'' are not directly manageable by the actor. He's dealing with a Situation, situations present different avaible choices but not all of them, it sets the boundaries for acting. That limits the actor and, in any case, conditions him.

    Rationality, as a process(a limited one with variable margins), erupts due to the fact that a certain actor can actually measure the results and decide between different courses of action, if there weren't any ''conditions'' there would be no rationality to decide among courses of action, taking courses of action with external conditions to deal with is basically ''conditioning''.
    Last edited by Claudius Gothicus; October 11, 2012 at 06:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by SparksNow View Post
    From what I've come to realize the mind can't really be the product of particles or any semi/para-physical potentials known from quantum physics. How could cells - how many ever - create a mind? Otherwise a grain of sand could have a mind, as it - in it's essence - it the same as the human brain -> a conglomerate of particles of a sun that imploded far away in the past.
    THe chemical reactions that take place in the brain are very different from what goes on in a grain of sand. Science has reached a point where we can even map brain activity and see some of the most immediate effects of said reactions. Nevertheless, there is no evidence to show that we are not lost in Plato's cave, however there is no reason to believe that we are either.

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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Yes, yes, I apologize for the Marxist terminology. Not everyone is familiar with it. By "being for self," what I meant is that animals cannot place themselves in the world. They only understand their immediate being, not the various relations that shape them. This is why an animal would never ask itself the question that Hobbes is asking.

    But what do I know? Let Marx speak for himself:
    The animal is immediately one with its life activity. It does not distinguish itself from it. It is its life activity. Man makes his life activity itself the object of his will and of his consciousness. He has conscious life activity. It is not a determination with which he directly merges. Conscious life activity distinguishes man immediately from animal life activity. It is just because of this that he is a species-being. Or it is only because he is a species-being that he is a conscious being, i.e., that his own life is an object for him. Only because of that is his activity free activity. Estranged labor reverses the relationship, so that it is just because man is a conscious being that he makes his life activity, his essential being, a mere means to his existence.

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    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    What we can argue however is that animals do posses a certain level of ''rationality'' in the sense that they can elect between different paths of action when encountered with an specific situation(the difference being that an animal's constraints are by far much stricter). Their relationship with the ''medium'' in any case is not ''instrumental'' due to the fact that they are deprivated of the cognitive mechanisms to generate a more ''complex'' form of reason.

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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes. View Post
    This is what I've been thinking, however I amn not sure yet. Our actions are influenced by factors such as social conditions, however we can alter many things in our environment, as we can see from the course of human history. The question that remains (for my inexperienced mind, at least) is what is more influencing? Is it the environment or our will, and how can people lead their lives based on this? I can deduct, from observations, that different people would react differently in the same situations, and some argue that while some elements of our character are shaped by the environment there are genetic traits that make people predisposed to certain reactions (I am not well informed about the scientific research on the matter, but I have heard this opinion being expressed a lot, but of course it could be wrong). And in the end, what are the limits of our ability to act consciously? It has to be the environment, but where does the first obstacle appear? I think we need to specify these limits if we are to find a way to lead our lives, otherwise we face the dilemma described in my first post.
    Not sure that my response is accordingly to your point. I think the human will is part of the human evolution, thus nature/environment conditioned, but of course human culture development manipulates a lot, the social life, the interaction within the societies, and of course action from one human culture to another, but all that is as well conditioned by the environment, and the latter in the first place or basicly.

    However, your theme (your question) depends on the scale you are looking at it.
    (A) The grand scale is a science-field which is ie. investigated by Biological Anthopologists, who research the human evolution altogether, and recent results give clear hint that we are even at the start of human evolution (in grand scale view), although there is little change since about 30000 years (for the homo sapiens in anthropological view).
    (B) The social/individual scale is the sociological and psychological researchment until psychoanalysis, plus with of course the mere biological regard of neurological researchment and actual genom-researchment (the two latter belong merely to A), which show us altogether ie. that in detail-view no mind/brain is equal to another, although basic saved information and abilities in our genoms are equal.

    For A, there is little point to say that humans influence their lives, just because the nature (the natural conditions) formed/created us, including of course our genoms, which keep all the evolutional information, which gives us our basic abilities, and so one can claim, this ability is created by the environment, in conclusion our will is created by the natural frame conditions, which are just all environment parameters.

    For B, when we look at individual humans, we can of course claim, we have a will. However this will is in the field(s) of B formed by our historical and social development, the close-by environment so to speak, the interaction on the smaller scale-view, basis though is A, but B influences all the time, the will if transformed into action influences again the former frame conditions, interaction and dynamic manipulation.

    As short summary though, the view of B is dependent on A, there is no B without A, just A is the historical base of human evolution.

    And since the human evolution allowed us (homo sapiens) to take influence on the nature/environment, there is a lot interaction between environment conditions and our actions.

    One could say, the selective evolution gave us basicly even the will to change nature, our frame condition and basis for the human evolution.

    Oh, and mind is after my personal belief as well part of this evolution (so basicly environment-conditioned) - there is no plausible point to think mind is a property independent of this human evolution, other than that to believe into a God who distributes soul/mind whatever, and takes it again when the human body dies just to re-distribute soul/mind. I think mind is dependent on a living body, the will is coppled to mind, and in my thinking conditioned by environment (grand scale A and social/individual scale B). Mind in itself is a strange/unclear item though, yes, we are not that far to have an all-explaining answer about mind, as atheist i think it is a form of dynamic processes produced by our brains, and has no metaphysical background.

    Can we influence our lives?
    Yes, we can and should
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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes. View Post
    From what I've come to realize the mind can't really be the product of particles or any semi/para-physical potentials known from quantum physics. How could cells - how many ever - create a mind? Otherwise a grain of sand could have a mind, as it - in it's essence - it the same as the human brain -> a conglomerate of particles of a sun that imploded far away in the past. - THe chemical reactions that take place in the brain are very different from what goes on in a grain of sand. Science has reached a point where we can even map brain activity and see some of the most immediate effects of said reactions.
    The chemical reactions are perhaps very different, but the chemical realm is the derivation of the atomic realm, which is againg the derivation of the sub-atomic realm, which is in the end the derivation of the quantum realm.

    And in the realm that counts (that which is most basic = the quantum realm), the "brain" and "the grain of sand" are the same -> ie. they both don't exist as such, as they're being is purely hypothetical. IE. in the quantum realm there is no brain or grain of salt or atom or human.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes. View Post
    Nevertheless, there is no evidence to show that we are not lost in Plato's cave, however there is no reason to believe that we are either.
    Even what I said above, could be a shadow of things unknown seen in a dark cave.

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    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    The realm that counts? Their being is hypothetical?

    The brain is real. And so is a grain of sand. This level of abstraction counts just as much as any other level. Their differences are real, just not in and for themselves.

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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes. View Post
    So I was wondering: Can people really influence their lives? ...
    You are condemned to be free. (Sartre)

    Though your choices may be limited, you will never escape the burden of choice. And, if one has choice, one can influence their own life. You didn't, necessarily, claim that it must always have to be a positive influence, did you? The only requirement is an ability to act and, if that is true, then there is a chance for positive influence.
    Under the Patronage of Thanatos.

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    Default Re: Can we influence our lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes. View Post
    So I was wondering: Can people really influence their lives? At first, it seems that we really do, since it seems that we experience the effects of our actions. However, are our actions a result of purely free will, or are they just mere natural responses to certain stimuli, under specific conditions? We see people acting in different ways, some with pure instinct and others with more caution, however since we cannot replicate the exact conditions during which an action was taken, how can we possibly determine whether those approaches would lead to different results (different actions being taken)? And if the answer is in the middle, which means that our actions are a result of both individual will and environmental factors, where do we draw the line on how much we can influence our lives? I think that a line needs to be drawn if a man is to achieve areté. Otherwise men would either remain apathetic without any interest to pursue goals that would be achievable, contributing nothing to society or at least wasting his potential, or, he would be acting foolishly and without caution, by pursuing unattainable goals.
    Does it really matter whether the actions are your own or given to you by a higher power, cause-and-effect chains in your brain molecules and stimuli through sensory organs, or through random quantum mechanics, or through some sort of own freedom of thought that needs a spiritual explanation to work?

    If fate/evolution/nature/God meant for your way of behavior to be successful, it will be, otherwise it won't. Your reward for success can be eternal life through an infinite chain of offspring, your punishment, extinction.

    No matter which way, you'll still want to do some irrational things and some entertaining things since the very feelings they give you will motivate you to struggle for the goals you were programmed to fulfill. Even IF you had your own choice of every individual act - can you deny you were hardcoded from birth to strive for eternal procreation, within the limits given by your capabilities?

    There are way more possible philosophical scenarios implying you DON'T have any freedom, than there are ways to explain how freedom of choice would work. But in the end, isn't it way more fun to think your behavior is guided by some form of fate, God, natural instincts, or other? If you abandon your instincts too much, you will not let nature extinct bad instincts from nature or reward good ones. Those who abandon nature completely and attempt to live only by "rational thought", usually get punished by lack of love, or lack of judgment, in subtle and complex affairs involving too many factors for mere "rationality" to grasp. Instincts contain infinitely more wisdom than most people are aware of, and it is our duty to follow our instincts to some degree - not in the sense of living for pleasure or living for the day, or not accepting hard work and suffering to achieve great goals, as many try to imply that "living by instincts" would mean. But to follow the judgement from all parts of the brain. As a northerner of genes, it is almost instinctive to want to build great things for the future, and accept less reward today for bigger returns on investments tomorrow - thus it is that we instictively set out to build great monuments and unsurpassed architectural wonders.
    Last edited by truth1337; October 25, 2012 at 11:37 AM.

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