Scottish Idependence- The only option for a Scottish socialist ?

[tonymurphy1888]

Okay I know we must have had 50 different disscussions on Scottish Independence, but in the past few weeks I have noticed in myself and within my group of friends a monumental shift in opinions about independence. This shift for me was sparked by a speech made by Johann Lamont, who, for those of you who don't know is the leader of Scottish labour.I feel this quote from the Scotsman newspaper sums up the speech best "A keynote speech, in which she announced everything from pensioner bus passes to free prescriptions was fair game, lacked a *single example of how Labour might rebalance spending to create a voter-seducing, fairer society. That failure by Lamont to provide any detail allowed the SNP to
attack. And, boy, did they attack."

Of course I, a member of the labour party a "socialist democratic party" was left scratching my head a wee bit, Ms Lamont basically called these items unsustainable, but you see as a socialist this boggled my brain and this called my membership in Labour party into question well a few days passed and still i was questioning my membership. I then attended a lecture thingy speech type thing titled "A strange death of Labour in Scotland" and at this lecture thingy I was told that the labour party in Scotland was basically a ship without a bearing lost at sea destined to simply do the opposite of the other top party in Scotland they had no goal. No socialist agenda. Then the discussion turned onto the Ms lamonts speech, to which i was surprised to hear almost everyone in the room agreed with her, they said this was the only possible path for Labour that marketisation in the party was inevitable.

Well the next day came and I gave up my Labour membership. It seems to me that in Scotland if Labour is the socialist option, then Scotland has no real Socialist option, i feel that real socialist in the labour party are being forced to toe the Westminster party line and thus it would seem to me that Scotland simply cannot stay as part of the union, surely Scotland cant be governed by a Westminster government like the current one it would seem to me the only way forward would to be to break from the union, and then talks about radical socialism could be implemented.

To be honest I really hope one of you can come on and tell me I am talking shite and their is another way to have socialist policys in Scotland without breaking up the union ? any ideas?

[Col. Tartleton]

Scotland isn't a real nation. Scotland is the Hipster region of Northern England that wants to be ironic and different. Screw the man, be Scottish. Wear a kilt. Wear ostrich feathers on your head. Take up the bagpipes. Eat disgusting food even by British standards. Talk slightly differently. Learn a worthless language no one actually uses. Paint your face blue. Yeah! Scotland the Brave!

Ireland is a nation. Wales is more of a nation than Scotland.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Is Scotland a distinct cultural region of Great Britain? Yes. Is Scottish independence reasonable? No. What's the United Kingdom? The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. ie. Scotland isn't a country. Ireland sort of decided to leave the Union. England, Scotland, and Wales are a single country.

The fact you have devolved power is ridiculous. The 8 or 9 regions of England don't. They have more people and more importance to the country, but you don't see a Federation.

[tonymurphy1888]

Scotland isn't a real country.

Could you expand on that please pal?

Scotland isn't a real nation. Scotland is the Hipster region of Northern England that wants to be ironic and different. Screw the man, be Scottish. Wear a kilt. Wear ostrich feathers on your head. Take up the bagpipes. Eat disgusting food even by British standards. Talk slightly differently. Learn a worthless language no one actually uses. Paint your face blue. Yeah! Scotland the Brave!

Ireland is a nation . Wales is more of a nation than Scotland.

Alright a get it noo

Is Scotland a distinct cultural region of Great Britain? Yes. Is Scottish independence reasonable? No. What's the United Kingdom? The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. ie. Scotland isn't a country. Ireland sort of decided to leave the Union. England, Scotland, and Wales are a single country.

The fact you have devolved power is ridiculous. The 8 or 9 regions of England don't. They have more people and more importance to the country, but you don't see a Federation.

A definitely get it noo

[hellheaven1987]

Scotland isn't a real nation. Scotland is the Hipster region of Northern England that wants to be ironic and different. Screw the man, be Scottish. Wear a kilt. Wear ostrich feathers on your head. Take up the bagpipes. Eat disgusting food even by British standards. Talk slightly differently. Learn a worthless language no one actually uses. Paint your face blue. Yeah! Scotland the Brave!

But I want to use Claymore...

[Col. Tartleton]

But I want to use Claymore...

You can be Scottish. I'm not saying there isn't a Scottish subculture. I just think it's ridiculous to think of Scotland as a different country when been a single country since 1707. That's 305 years. They've been semi unified even longer.

It's not even like you've got grievances, being British for the Scottish has been pretty advantageous. You've got your own Scottish Parliament and inclusion in the British Parliament. You've got your own vaguely separate legal system. England doesn't even have a Parliament and they're more than 80% of the people.

London is more of a country than Scotland.

I'm all for regional devolution, but where is the South West English Parliament and the East England Parliament? Those regions both have more people than Scotland and they're recognized by the EU as equivalent regions to Scotland and Wales.

[Gatsby]

You can be Scottish. I'm not saying there isn't a Scottish subculture. I just think it's ridiculous to think of Scotland as a different country when been a single country since 1707. That's 305 years. They've been semi unified even longer.

It's not even like you've got grievances, being British for the Scottish has been pretty advantageous. You've got your own Scottish Parliament and inclusion in the British Parliament. You've got your own vaguely separate legal system. England doesn't even have a Parliament and they're more than 80% of the people.

London is more of a country than Scotland.

I'm all for regional devolution, but where is the South West English Parliament and the East England Parliament? Those regions both have more people than Scotland and they're recognized by the EU as equivalent regions to Scotland and Wales.

If the Cornish and Northumbrians want devolved power and independence then who would stop them? Its not like there are myriad seperate groups in England being repressed for the sake of Scottish favouritism, its just that there is a greater sense of national consciousness in Scotland than in the historic English regions. And really, what more can you realisitcally quantify a nation as than a set of people sharing a similar sense of identity and fraternity?

If you told an 18th-century Bostonian that he was an American he probably would have laughed in your face, so who the are you to lecture us on the legitimacy of the nations of the British Isles?

[Col. Tartleton]

If the Cornish and Northumbrians want devolved power and independence then who would stop them? Its not like there are myriad seperate groups in England being repressed for the sake of Scottish favouritism, its just that there is a greater sense of national consciousness in Scotland than in the historic English regions. And really, what more can you realisitcally quantify a nation as than a set of people sharing a similar sense of identity and fraternity?

If you told an 18th-century Bostonian that he was an American he probably would have laughed in your face, so who the are you to lecture us on the legitimacy of the nations of the British Isles?

Massachusetts is a State (ie. a hundreds of years old semi sovereign country with it's own government, laws, customs, and bound by treaty in a federation) and Scotland is a collection of northerly counties in Great Britain which has recently gained some vague semblance of statehood in 1998... I won't say there is no similarity, but yeah, Mass is way more of a country than Scotland.

Scotland dissolved in 1707 and sort of reestablished in 1998. If the Scottish really want to break off they can, I'm just not sure what the logic is. The OP is talking about creating some sort of socialist state separate from the UK. The People's Republic of Scotia I guess.

[tonymurphy1888]

You can be Scottish. I'm not saying there isn't a Scottish subculture. I just think it's ridiculous to think of Scotland as a different country when been a single country since 1707. That's 305 years. They've been semi unified even longer.

It's not even like you've got grievances, being British for the Scottish has been pretty advantageous. You've got your own Scottish Parliament and inclusion in the British Parliament. You've got your own vaguely separate legal system. England doesn't even have a Parliament and they're more than 80% of the people.

London is more of a country than Scotland.

I'm all for regional devolution, but where is the South West English Parliament and the East England Parliament? Those regions both have more people than Scotland and they're recognized by the EU as equivalent regions to Scotland and Wales.

Tho that guys reply pretty much cuxified your agument, I would like to point out that all this national pride you're talking about is not what I'm preaching, I am looking at the independence debate from a purely political perspective, the angle i am coming from is about the possibility of socialism having a place in Scotland in the union. History, borders it all means very little to me what however does matter is how socialism will fayer in the union...

[Lazzeer]

Okay I know we must have had 50 different disscussions on Scottish Independence, but in the past few weeks I have noticed in myself and within my group of friends a monumental shift in opinions about independence. This shift for me was sparked by a speech made by Johann Lamont, who, for those of you who don't know is the leader of Scottish labour.I feel this quote from the Scotsman newspaper sums up the speech best "A keynote speech, in which she announced everything from pensioner bus passes to free prescriptions was fair game, lacked a *single example of how Labour might rebalance spending to create a voter-seducing, fairer society. That failure by Lamont to provide any detail allowed the SNP to
attack. And, boy, did they attack."

Of course I, a member of the labour party a "socialist democratic party" was left scratching my head a wee bit, Ms Lamont basically called these items unsustainable, but you see as a socialist this boggled my brain and this called my membership in Labour party into question well a few days passed and still i was questioning my membership. I then attended a lecture thingy speech type thing titled "A strange death of Labour in Scotland" and at this lecture thingy I was told that the labour party in Scotland was basically a ship without a bearing lost at sea destined to simply do the opposite of the other top party in Scotland they had no goal. No socialist agenda. Then the discussion turned onto the Ms lamonts speech, to which i was surprised to hear almost everyone in the room agreed with her, they said this was the only possible path for Labour that marketisation in the party was inevitable.

Well the next day came and I gave up my Labour membership. It seems to me that in Scotland if Labour is the socialist option, then Scotland has no real Socialist option, i feel that real socialist in the labour party are being forced to toe the Westminster party line and thus it would seem to me that Scotland simply cannot stay as part of the union, surely Scotland cant be governed by a Westminster government like the current one it would seem to me the only way forward would to be to break from the union, and then talks about radical socialism could be implemented.

To be honest I really hope one of you can come on and tell me I am talking shite and their is another way to have socialist policys in Scotland without breaking up the union ? any ideas?

Coming from a strongly left wing family myself I kind of know where you're coming from. Lamont is quite frankly appalling. I actually felt a sense of respect for Lamont when I heard she had made a discussion about how Scotland needs to say goodbye to the entitlement society, thinking that she'd be advocating cutting back the public sector workforce in Scotland, building a leaner, more efficient state. Instead of advocating a state that works for us, she instead advocated cutting public sector programs to save public sector workers - a state that you work for, not a state that works for you.

Scottish Labour are going through their wilderness years at the moment, quite clearly shown by their support for the unelectable Lamont, but this isn't to say that the only option therefore is for Scottish socialists to support independence. Instead I think what would be best for all the parties in Scotland is by doing what Murdo Fraser advocated for the Scottish Conservatives - that the parties should become independent of the Westminster parties. This would allow them to be able to better decide policy on what works for Scotland rather than what toes the Westminster party line. I remember how Wendy Alexander's political credibility was destroyed when she challenged Alex Salmond to a referendum, only to have Gordon Brown come in over her head and state that there would be no referendum.

So in short; you can get independent parties in Scotland without Scotland being independent, and Lamont is terrible and independence won't change that.

[Aanker]

Or it could just be that socialism is no longer a viable option for Europe and social democrats are beginning to realize that.

[Lazzeer]

Or it could just be that socialism is no longer a viable option for Europe and social democrats are beginning to realize that.

Partly. What we've seen is a collapse of the "traditional Labour voter" with the rise of the middle class and privatization in Scotland. As less and less members of the public are members of unions, Labour has wrongly tried to market themselves as defenders of the public sector (rather than public interests), as this is one of the last big unionized workforces'. This puts them in a ridiculous place in times of austerity, as shown by the Lamont speech, with them seemingly advocating protecting public sector jobs at the expense of public sector services.

[tonymurphy1888]

Or it could just be that socialism is no longer a viable option for Europe and social democrats are beginning to realize that.

A person who doesn't believe that socialism surely can't be a social democrat. and personally i think socialism is the only viable option for Europe. Marketisation doesn't work for the lower classes and this will inevitbly lead to conflict i feel the only way forward is social equality which can only be reached though socialism.

Coming from a strongly left wing family myself I kind of know where you're coming from. Lamont is quite frankly appalling. I actually felt a sense of respect for Lam.............. Conservatives - that the parties should become independent of the Westminster parties. This would allow them to be able to better decide policy on what works for Scotland rather than what toes the Westminster party line. I remember how Wendy Alexander's political credibility was destroyed when she challenged Alex Salmond to a referendum, only to have Gordon Brown come in over her head and state that there would be no referendum.

So in short; you can get independent parties in Scotland without Scotland being independent, and Lamont is terrible and independence won't change that.

That could work tho I still feel that powers outwith holy-rood could hold Scotland back , I remember Murdo Frazer talking about that but in this current system it pains me to say I am leaning towards voting for independence

[Lazzeer]

That could work tho I still feel that powers outwith holy-rood could hold Scotland back , I remember Murdo Frazer talking about that but in this current system it pains me to say I am leaning towards voting for independence

I think you overestimate the effects Scottish independence would have on Scottish Labour, whilst underestimating how the SNP wants Scotland to be further integrated into Europe (if you feel Scotland is somehow "held back" by membership of larger unions). I agree that the current system isn't perfect, and personally I think Scotland should have greater tax raising and spending powers in order to encourage greater fiscal accountability.

Tho that guys reply pretty much cuxified your agument, I would like to point out that all this national pride you're talking about is not what I'm preaching, I am looking at the independence debate from a purely political perspective, the angle i am coming from is about the possibility of socialism having a place in Scotland in the union. History, borders it all means very little to me what however does matter is how socialism will fayer in the union...

This idea is often put about that an independent Scotland would be some progressive utopia. Alex Neil, the SNP Health Secretary's recent comments about how he agrees with further restricting access to abortions and how an independent Scotland can do more to restrict abortions than the Scottish govt can at the moment is a reminder that an independent Scotland would be faced by many of the ideological debates we see in the UK. Just because the Conservative Party isn't popular in Scotland doesn't mean Social Conservatism and Economic liberalism isn't popular. Hell the SNP's nickname is the tartan tories. Relating back to socialism, part of the entire point of socialism is that class is more important unifier than nationality, an idea which seems entirely at odds with Scottish nationalism.

You can be Scottish. I'm not saying there isn't a Scottish subculture. I just think it's ridiculous to think of Scotland as a different country when been a single country since 1707. That's 305 years. They've been semi unified even longer.

It's not even like you've got grievances, being British for the Scottish has been pretty advantageous. You've got your own Scottish Parliament and inclusion in the British Parliament. You've got your own vaguely separate legal system. England doesn't even have a Parliament and they're more than 80% of the people.

London is more of a country than Scotland.

Scotland is a nation because it identifies as such, with many of its own national institutions. Modern Scottish nationalism is built strongly on a strong sense of civic nationalism and the idea that Scotland is politically different from England.

I'm all for regional devolution, but where is the South West English Parliament and the East England Parliament? Those regions both have more people than Scotland and they're recognized by the EU as equivalent regions to Scotland and Wales.

Further regional devolution was put on hold following the overwhelming rejection of the Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Act 2003 in the Northern England devolution referendums.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norther...erendums,_2004

[tonymurphy1888]

I think you overestimate the effects Scottish independence would have on Scottish Labour, whilst underestimating how the SNP wants Scotland to be further integrated into Europe (if you feel Scotland is somehow "held back" by membership of larger unions). I agree that the current system isn't perfect, and personally I think Scotland should have greater tax raising and spending powers in order to encourage greater fiscal accountability.

Yeah I don't necessarily think the SNP are the party to lead Scotland if it was to become independent, what I would like to see is a strong socialist party to emerge even if it was to come from the ashes of labour. Devo max would be ideal but there's still no real news about it being on the ballot paper. I feel when ever there is a crisis the English voters tend to elect the torries as trouble shooters, and this seems to be in a rinse and repeat cycle, Scotland puts very few torrie mp's in Westminster (if any?) The question I'm asking is is the only way to stop this cycle to become independent ?

Relating back to socialism, part of the entire point of socialism is that class is more important unifier than nationality, an idea which seems entirely at odds with Scottish nationalism.

I totally agree with that I'd love a world without nationality and borders but this isn't something that can happen overnight voters need to be shown that socialist policies can work, and in Scotland in the union I feel they wouldn't being giving the chance to develop, without the fail safe torries to pop in and cut public spending to ribbons.

[Admiral Piett]

Yeah I don't necessarily think the SNP are the party to lead Scotland if it was to become independent, what I would like to see is a strong socialist party to emerge even if it was to come from the ashes of labour. Devo max would be ideal but there's still no real news about it being on the ballot paper. I feel when ever there is a crisis the English voters tend to elect the torries as trouble shooters, and this seems to be in a rinse and repeat cycle, Scotland puts very few torrie mp's in Westminster (if any?) The question I'm asking is is the only way to stop this cycle to become independent ?




I totally agree with that I'd love a world without nationality and borders but this isn't something that can happen overnight voters need to be shown that socialist policies can work, and in Scotland in the union I feel they wouldn't being giving the chance to develop, without the fail safe torries to pop in and cut public spending to ribbons.

So you admit your desires are contradictory? If you want an independent Scotland, its going to be a leaner state with less public spending and more marketization. If you want to retain your socialist spending policies, stay with Great Britain.

[Lazzeer]

Yeah I don't necessarily think the SNP are the party to lead Scotland if it was to become independent, what I would like to see is a strong socialist party to emerge even if it was to come from the ashes of labour. Devo max would be ideal but there's still no real news about it being on the ballot paper. I feel when ever there is a crisis the English voters tend to elect the torries as trouble shooters, and this seems to be in a rinse and repeat cycle, Scotland puts very few torrie mp's in Westminster (if any?) The question I'm asking is is the only way to stop this cycle to become independent ?

Scotlands rejection of the Conservatives is less due to a lack of conservatism in Scotland, and more due to the fact that the Conservatives (rightly or wrongly) are still stigmatised in Scotland due to Thatcher.

If anything, independence would actually probably allow for a resurgent Conservative party in Scotland, as an independent Conservative party wouldn't be viewed as "English." The SNP would likely fracture in an independent Scotland, as although it's run quite centrally it contains quite a plethora of people from different ideologies, largely united under the banner of Scottish nationalism. Scottish conservatives would be strengthened by this.

For Labour to make a come-back in they need to give the people of Scotland a positive vision for a better Scotland. At the moment Labour seems to almost feel a sense of entitlement in relation to politics - like they should be elected, and they don't really have to fight for it, as if people will just elect them again without any effort on their own part. This is the failure of Scottish Labour, and independence alone won't solve it.

I think we should probably as well work out what the discussion here is about - are we talking about Labourite social democracy? Or Scottish Socialist Party hard socialism (means of production owned by the state), because parties like the SSP will never receive popular support, regardless of Scotlands constitutional status.

I totally agree with that I'd love a world without nationality and borders but this isn't something that can happen overnight voters need to be shown that socialist policies can work, and in Scotland in the union I feel they wouldn't being giving the chance to develop, without the fail safe torries to pop in and cut public spending to ribbons.

I know, but the point is that if anything conservatism in Scotland would get a shot in the arm in an independent Scotland, and that even if a socialist party did emerge it would still be faced against an economically liberal/socially conservative party that would likely emerge on the Scottish political landscape. Democracies all over the world are faced with this kind of ideological debate in their politics and Scotland is would not escape this.

[Ne Obliviscaris]

Scotland has every right to succeed from the United Kingdom, however I'm not sure we should. I lean rather violently to the left, but I look upon Scotland as the Bastion of the British left. If Scotland gained independence I would loathe to have that banker Salmond take over, he barely knows the difference between himself and Idi Amin. Plus it is regrettably unreasonable to see Scotland becoming independent; we'd share banks, retailers and therefore our economy with England or go into the Euro, which is not looking great at the moment. Politicians are politicians, but Labour is ideologically superior to the Tories. Therefore I'm happy with what we have; the opportunity to be abusive to the Toffs in London and the right to boot out the Morons in Holyrood.

[Watercress]

You would be keeping the Pound, the Bank of England, and the Monarchy. What independence is that? Anyway, as others have said, we Englishmen need to keep you guys to have any chance of deposing the Tories come 2015.

[Admiral Piett]

This politician you are quoting is probably making the best move. You are supporting Scottish independence not for the purpose of seeking a better
option of government than Britain, but simply because your political party is pragmatic. Labour has not honestly been a left-wing party much beyond fiscal issues. Labour's security policies quite mimic the Republican Party in fact.

If Scotland is to be independent - which I think it could - it absolutely must take a market approach because the state of Scotland now is pretty horrid compared to England. You've got way too many people dependant upon the system and not enough real prosperity - which is England's main countercriticism against Scottish independence. If Scotland is running England in the red to support its socialized services, how could it ever survive financially without borrowing a -ton of money?

This is where social democrats have slightly more sense than socialists - because they recognize the imperative necessity to have competent markets and have a maintainable fiscal policy so that they don't up as Greece or Spain. Markets have always been the main source of revenue for the government - so it would make little sense to oppose market revitalization. Scotland can have a future if it takes an approach directly opposite of what you're advocating. We'll wait and see how the socialists affect France's viability - they certainly didn't make things that great two decades ago and it's probably not going to be much better or different. Especially during global recession and the need for cutbacks.

[Gandalfus]

They can bugger off for all I care- they suck too much off English milk already.