Firethrowers?

[Hoplite of Ilis]

As the title suggests, can you put this unit on your next version? How come the previous ones missed it? Or is it not historicaly accurate?
And CONGRATULATONS on this mod. You should release the soundtrack .

[nein]

if you want the music you can always extract it via the 'pak extractor'

Besides it would be illegal for them to 'release' the music as none of it is produced by them. In fact it is probably illegal for them to use the music in the mod... not that I give a

[Hoplite of Ilis]

Right!

[Dago Red]

This firethrower question sounds familiar....

I've said this before -- no one wants clowns running around like carnies with flamethrowers in such a mod like BC, which aims for more of a historically realistic experience. I never played vanilla but I played around with Stainless Steel recently and somewhere in there I used them. They were a bit of fun, in the same way Donkey Kong is in the arcade. Not for BC.

However..... the basic idea for the unit is historically accurate. So they should be in game, just not as the vanilla unit. It was a very real and oft used defensive art.

There is no question they were used often in sieges (not just on their ships) and even the Hospitallars are recorded using them in siege defense. But not guys running around on the battlefield -- the devices were not mobile, but set up in a fixed position -- like a cannon. You could move it, but not easily and not in the midst of battle with one guy.

So, it must be treated as a siege unit. I think a reasonable unit could be made up designed entirely with wall defense in mind -- like a siege weapon but made entirely of men. Tiny units of 10 or less, incredibly slow firing and with the move_speed mod line added in EDU to make sure they can't move, much.

ie:
Eastern Roman Empire Cheirosiphōnes (I do believe that would be their correct name)
etc, etc
soldier Greek_firethrower, 10, 0, 1
etc, etc
move_speed_mod 0.1



ps.
For balance sake, in the siege arms race, the Ayyubids also need my Dismounted Ghulam with naptha grenades.

[Jedi Knight]

This firethrower question sounds familiar....

I've said this before -- no one wants clowns running around like carnies with flamethrowers in such a mod like BC, which aims for more of a historically realistic experience. I never played vanilla but I played around with Stainless Steel recently and somewhere in there I used them. They were a bit of fun, in the same way Donkey Kong is in the arcade. Not for BC.

However..... the basic idea for the unit is historically accurate. So they should be in game, just not as the vanilla unit. It was a very real and oft used defensive art.

There is no question they were used often in sieges (not just on their ships) and even the Hospitallars are recorded using them in siege defense. But not guys running around on the battlefield -- the devices were not mobile, but set up in a fixed position -- like a cannon. You could move it, but not easily and not in the midst of battle with one guy.

So, it must be treated as a siege unit. I think a reasonable unit could be made up designed entirely with wall defense in mind -- like a siege weapon but made entirely of men. Tiny units of 10 or less, incredibly slow firing and with the move_speed mod line added in EDU to make sure they can't move, much.

ie:
Eastern Roman Empire Cheirosiphōnes (I do believe that would be their correct name)
etc, etc
soldier Greek_firethrower, 10, 0, 1
etc, etc
move_speed_mod 0.1



ps.
For balance sake, in the siege arms race, the Ayyubids also need my Dismounted Ghulam with naptha grenades.

Thanks for the info. I always wonder are the running firethrowers in the open field historically accurate.

[k/t]

The link doesn't work.

Hmm...a siege engine that spits fire...it would mainly involve creating a model for it, no?

[Dago Red]

No, I just mean taking the vanilla unit (hopefully re-skinning it) and massively re-thinking it. Namely, making it a small group of men who basically cannot move faster than a siege engine. See partial EDU entry above--if I'm not mistaken that is where you would add the move speed mod, but I've never done it and am unsure of the right value to use.

Only a madman would use them in open battle, they would be for siege only (attack or defense). Of course, the AI might use them inappropriately, but I believe there are ways to encourage best practices. They could also be made very rare for the AI, but included in spawned garrison script troops so that they appear now and then, defending ERE cities and castles in sieges.


I fixed the link, don't get excited it is not to an actual model -- just historical refernces supporting the creation of one. Again, it could be done with existing models/units.

[Double A]

Only a madman would use them in open battle, they would be for siege only (attack or defense).

Challenge accepted.

[Ichon]

Naptha throwers were also not uncommon but the affects are difficult to display accurately. The vanilla fire thrower with a large speed nerf might still be too powerful due to the range but otherwise that seems a good effort.

[zburanuki]

the byzantines used liquid fire not only in naval battles and in sieges but also int open field and of course these missile-weapons were moveable.here i post some links with these firethrowers.

http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz5.html
http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz2.html
http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz6.html

[MrExpendable]

the byzantines used liquid fire not only in naval battles and in sieges but also int open field and of course these missile-weapons were moveable.here i post some links with these firethrowers.

http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz5.html
http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz2.html
http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz6.html

I have to confess that when I saw your avatar pic, I thought "Oh great, another guy who wants to overpower his favorite faction". Then I read those sources and was stunned.

[Dago Red]

That's amazing stuff zburanuki. So now BC raelly has no choice but to re-include a Cheirosiphōnes or something like it

But I still debate that they were any more portable than a small unit of men with a move_speed_mod applied to them in the EDU. In reality, during this time, it would have been a multi-part contraption that would take a lot of effort to move around -- even to just turn around 180 degrees.

The portable version you have info for there lists the 14th century. If that's true, there was a one man portable liquid naptha thrower, but only very late in BC's time frame. The one more in our time frame you have there shows only the business end of a larger system -- "These sources of the 10th century present groups of air-pumps, tubes and tanks of liquids," which was not going anywhere too quickly.

I've seen recreations and though there are always variants, what I saw was a 2 or 3 man weapon. One guy had to aim and direct the tube, while another 1 or 2 men pumped bellows and assisted behind him.

I am totally blown away by that 14th century hand siphon though.

[AqD]

maybe they can be made as siege engines? That way they can attach/detach fire weapons when needed

[zburanuki]

@ mrexpendable: it's not an onerpower issue,i just wanted to prove that the byzantine firethrowers do existed,because i have read several times,not only in the BC topic, that they didn't.anyway, i'm that you enjoyed the pictures and the infos.

@aqd: of course that weapons can be made as siege engines, like a mangonel, and look like that(if you haven't seen these pictures already),although it will be very difficult to design them.

http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz2.html
http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz1.html
http://www.aet.com.gr/vyz3.html

[k/t]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aif9rz71CYQ

[Sitalkes]

Hand-held siphons

Detail of hand-siphon.


The portable cheirosiphōn ("hand-siphon"), the earliest analogue to a modern flamethrower, is extensively attested in the military documents of the 10th century, and recommended for use in both sea and land. They first appear in the Tactica of emperor Leo VI the Wise, who claims to have invented them.[38] Subsequent authors continued to refer to the cheirosiphōnes, especially for use against siege towers, although Nikephoros II Phokas also advises their use in field armies, with the aim of disrupting the enemy formation.[65] Although both Leo VI and Nikephoros Phokas claim that the substance used in the cheirosiphōnes was the same as in the static devices used on ships, they were manifestly different from their larger cousins. This led Haldon and Byrne to theorize that the device was fundamentally different, "a simple syringe [that] squirted both liquid fire (presumably unignited) and noxious juices to repel enemy troops." Nevertheless, as the illustrations of Hero's Poliorcetica show, the hand-siphons too threw the ignited substance.[1][80]

[Ichon]

Hand-held siphons

Detail of hand-siphon.


The portable cheirosiphōn ("hand-siphon"), the earliest analogue to a modern flamethrower, is extensively attested in the military documents of the 10th century, and recommended for use in both sea and land. They first appear in the Tactica of emperor Leo VI the Wise, who claims to have invented them.[38] Subsequent authors continued to refer to the cheirosiphōnes, especially for use against siege towers, although Nikephoros II Phokas also advises their use in field armies, with the aim of disrupting the enemy formation.[65] Although both Leo VI and Nikephoros Phokas claim that the substance used in the cheirosiphōnes was the same as in the static devices used on ships, they were manifestly different from their larger cousins. This led Haldon and Byrne to theorize that the device was fundamentally different, "a simple syringe [that] squirted both liquid fire (presumably unignited) and noxious juices to repel enemy troops." Nevertheless, as the illustrations of Hero's Poliorcetica show, the hand-siphons too threw the ignited substance.[1][80]

That would be 1 or 2 shot device though at most. Interesting idea though- would it be worth or not to include in an army? Personally probably only for siege defense but others might want it for field battle.

[matmohair1]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Hoplite of Ilis]

Will an official creator of this mod simply tell me yes, no, probably?

[fryslan]

Should this mod be dead ;p