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Thread: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

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  1. #1

    Default [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    If you haven`t read all books yet, please don`t read this thread. You have been warned.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    This theory was proposed on reddit, and discussed on the .org forums. The theory?: Oberyn Martell poisoned Tywin Lannister. The evidence is quite overwhelming and the implications..

    Some quotes:

    “Where will I find my lord father?”
    “In the solar with Lord Tyrell and Prince Oberyn.”
    Mace Tyrell and the Red Viper breaking bread together? Strange and stranger.
    —Jaime and Ser Meryn Trant, upon Jaime’s return to King’s Landing

    “Widow’s blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons.”
    —Grand Maester Pycelle, during Tyrion’s trial

    “To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you.” The prince’s eyes were dark with amusement. “Who knows more of poison than the Red Viper of Dorne, after all?”
    […]
    “Your father,” said Prince Oberyn, “may not live forever.”
    Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. “It is not wise to speak such treasons in the Red Keep, my prince. The little birds are listening.”
    “Let them. Is it treason to say a man is mortal? Valar morghulis was how they said it in Valyria of old. All men must die. And the Doom came and proved it true.”
    —Prince Oberyn Martell and Tyrion, in Tyrion’s cell

    He found his father where he knew he’d find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips.
    […]
    For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
    Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, gold.
    —from Tyrion’s assassination of Tywin during his escape from the black cells

    The King’s Hand was rotting visibly. His face had taken on a greenish tinge, and his eyes were deeply sunken, two black pits. Fissures had opened in his cheeks, and a foul white fluid was seeping through the joints of his splendid gold-and-crimson armor to pool beneath his body.
    […]
    Red-eyed and pale, Cersei climbed the steps to kneel above their father, drawing Tommen down beside her. The boy recoiled at the sight, but his mother seized his wrist before he could pull away.“Pray,” she whispered, and Tommen tried. But he was only eight and Lord Tywin was a horror. One desperate breath of air, then the king began to sob.“Stop that!” Cersei said. Tommen turned his head and doubled over, retching. His crown fell off and rolled across the marble floor. His mother pulled back in disgust, and all at once the king was running for the doors, as fast as his eight-year-old legs could carry him.
    “Ser Osmund, relieve me,” Jaime said sharply, as Kettleblack turned to chase the crown. He handed the man the golden sword and went after his king. In the Hall of Lamps he caught him, beneath the eyes of two dozen startled septas. “I’m sorry,” Tommen wept. “I will do better on the morrow. Mother says a king must show the way, but the smell made me sick.”
    This will not do. Too many eager ears and watching eyes.“Best we go outside, Your Grace.” Jaime led the boy out to where the air was as fresh and clean as King’s Landing ever got. Twoscore gold cloaks had been posted around the plaza to guard the horses and the litters. He took the king off to the side, well away from everyone, and sat him down upon the marble steps. “I wasn’t scared,” the boy insisted. “The smell made me sick. Didn’t it make you sick? How could you bear it, Uncle, ser?”
    —Jaime, Cersei, and Tommen, during Tywin’s funeral.
    I’m just saying: means, motive, opportunity.
    Last edited by Lordinquisitor; October 06, 2012 at 03:39 AM.




  2. #2

    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    Even if he did it doesn't really matter since they are both dead. And it would have to be a slow acting poison...But the more I think about it the more likely it seems.
    Last edited by Fürst Frederic; October 06, 2012 at 04:03 AM.

  3. #3
    Prophet1331's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    It could also be possible that, because Tywin might be cautious and suspicious, Oberyn poisoned all the cups from that meeting. So that's why he volunteered to fight the Mountain for Tyrion, he was gonna die anyway but this was quicker and it allowed for more vengeance. That means old Mace Tyrell is next.
    Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. Tywin Lannister

  4. #4
    Dux's Avatar Warden of Westeros
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    No, Mace Tyrell was not poisoned. Simply because he is still alive as has shown no signs of being poisoned at all.

    I do buy it that Oberyn poisoned Tywin though. Motive, means, opportunity. Everything fits.

  5. #5

    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    Besides, poisoning Mace Tyrell would have been extremely stupid. For one; He`s incompetent. His Son Willas would succeed him, and he`s far more intelligent and able than mace. Killing him would also point directly towards the dornishmen; After all they hate each other.

    *Altough (Total Crackpot mode)* it would be funny if the Martells and the Tyrells were secretly allied, or at least would work towards the same goal. You know, both were targaryen loyalists.. And just as aegon lands, most of the small council is occupied by Tyrells? Maybe this all is yet another little sheme of varys.

    /Fürst Frederic: Widows Blood is slow acting and shuts down a mans bladders and bowels. This wouldn`t kill immediately, of all the Poisons Pycelle had to mention this one, and Tywin had to be some time on the privy- I mean, Tyrion had enough time to strangle shae and to ready the crossbow, without Tywin returning.

    During the Trial Tyrion also remarked once, after hearing shae, that his fathers head was so red/purple that he looked as if he had drunk a cup of poisoned wine, too. This, ofc, was just because he was angry- But GRRM loves such subtle hints.
    Last edited by Lordinquisitor; October 06, 2012 at 05:44 AM.




  6. #6
    Prophet1331's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    I still find it somewhat awkward that the big strategist Tywin , allowed himself to be poisoned. Granted, nobody expected it to happen.

    Did Doran knew this or was it all Oberyn's initiative ?
    Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. Tywin Lannister

  7. #7

    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    He most certainly knew. He told us in ADWD or AFFC, can`t remember, that he and his brother worked closely together. People might tread on him like grass; But the grass conceals the viper, as he explained.

    And i think that Tywin was too sure about himself in that case. He expected the dornishmen to buy his feeble excuses and likely didn`t think that one would be willing to throw his live away by poisoning him.. But Joffreys death and Tyrions trial made it easier for Oberyn to get away, or not.
    Last edited by Lordinquisitor; October 06, 2012 at 06:14 AM.




  8. #8
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    This is a very interesting theory. I buy it, but only if Oberyn will re resurected
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  9. #9

    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    Well, I certainly wouldn't put it past Oberyn to pull this off, but I disagree that he acted with his death in mind. He died because he got cocky. I don't think he would have brought Ellaseria along if he planned on being charged with murder.

    And about Tywin's corpse, while my kowledge of posthumous medical science is accidental at best, I understood that the alarming rate of decomposition was due to the abdominal wound he received. Upon death with the intestines intact the GI tract's acidity will keep the natural digestive bacterias in check, namely E. Coli. However with an intestinal wound the bacteroia, acid, and other bodily waste type poisons enter the abdominal cavity almost always resulting in an excruciating death in the absence of advanced medical treatment to include antidiotics. When the body dies with such an injury especially if the abdomen remains relatively closed, the corpse, now possessing no immune system to speak of, goes septic(Cf. septicemia) at an alarming, unchecked rate. As the bacteria, in any case, begins to decompose the body, it liquifies as cell membranes and other cohesive tissues are broken down and, much as described, this process would smell terrible. Also, a slow acting, systemic type poison would be much less likely to continue having effect after death as most such poisons require a functioning metabolism for anything to happen. Obviously, a magical poison is a bit of a wild card.

    Yes, I have read some paramedic, some field surgery, and some flat-out creepy books. And an aquaintance who worked in a funeral home, but there it is.

    Still, an interesting theory.

  10. #10

    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    Its possible but im sure Tywin would take precautions against poisoning and the post above... is great
    Had it not been for Tyrions comment that his father looked sick and no indication he had yet "been" with shae... or that he had problems passing his load as he did so easily and... fluently just after dying ( that poison is damn strange btw )
    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I do buy it that Oberyn poisoned Tywin though. Motive, means, opportunity. Everything fits.
    Agreed!

    Surprised that he did not save him for last but... Tywin is surely a hard man to kill.
    I also bet Oberyn would sneak in a message or somehow gloat to Tywin before he dies
    Last edited by Mithridate; October 06, 2012 at 12:24 PM.
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    Mount Suribachi's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    Its an interesting theory, but I wouldn't call the evidence "overwhelming"

    He found his father where he knew he’d find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips
    Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you - Littlefinger

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    Semisalis
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    Man just reading all this made me realize that Winds of Winter won't be out til 2014. Damn it.
    Sounds plausible, however would the Pince of Dorne have the guts to take such a drastic risk? He would put Dorne at war with the Tyrells and the Lannisters, just to kill Tywin. It would be obvious that if Tyrion had not killed his father, and Lord Tywin had died of poison, that is was the Red Viper.

  13. #13
    Louis XVI's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    I agree the theory is plausible but will Tywin Lannister, always described as brilliant, really let the most famous and obvious poisoner poison him? I mean how could Oberyn pull it off; everyone knew it was his speciality.

  14. #14
    Prophet1331's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XVI View Post
    I agree the theory is plausible but will Tywin Lannister, always described as brilliant, really let the most famous and obvious poisoner poison him? I mean how could Oberyn pull it off; everyone knew it was his speciality.
    I thought the same at first, but now that you think about it, the only one that could have found out about the poisoning (Varys and his spies) had all the reasons to let it happen. But still the poisoning must have been when Tywin was alone, not at a group meeting (how could you have been sure that Tywin gets the right cup without looking suspicious ?).
    Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. Tywin Lannister

  15. #15

    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    `likely the thought that someone would dare to try to poison him didn`t even cross his mind.




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    Mount Suribachi's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: [SPOILER FOR ALL BOOKS] Oberyn Martell

    I’m just saying: means, motive, opportunity.
    Just a lack of evidence though!

    Thats not to say he didn't do it - if anyone can uncover evidence of LF and Oberyn/Doran talking to each other I'd be much more likely to believe it But thats for another thread....

    Having just re-read all those chapters myself, I'm still not convinced. Clearly Oberyn wanted more than just Gregor's head, and clearly he never planned for Tyrion to be on trial for Joff's murder, but becoming Tyrions champion did not only give him the chance to kill Gregor, but also as Tyrion muses in his cell, completely wreck Tywins plans for the south - Gregor kills Oberyn and Dorne are even more seen off. Oberyn wins and the Tyrells see Margaerys "killer" walk free.
    Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you - Littlefinger

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