Economy???

[Hoplite of Ilis]

Hi all. Can somebody tell me how the hell do I build a decent economy in this mod??? - RS2,5. I played all Greek factions, and even though I build economic structures as much as my deposits allow me, I get a minus on my money after ten or so turns. They just won't multiply . Not to mention the Romans.
Still, this mod is TERRIFYING! Best graphics Rome ever had. And probalby the last ! Honestly, how much better can you make them?

[GaussSoldier]

Some tips for a bigger, better economy

1. You'll always make more through taxation than trade simply because you get more tax bonus buildings and policies. Prioritize those if the public order allows it.
2. Mines are your friend. Watch for the public health penalty on later upgrades though.
3. Yellow and green faces are your goals for public order when it comes to setting the taxes. Blue faces are good in a pinch.
4. Make it a goal to have a city where your characters can get an education. More smarts = better governors
5. Don't forget to pass on any beneficial retinue to the proper characters. Develop your governors and generals accordingly.
6. Watch for any "Tax" policies, they're only meant to be used in desperate situations or when you have nothing else to build and your public order can handle the hit. If a settlement is particularly rebellious, look for these policies and get rid of them. The AI will build them sometimes and cause more harm than good for you if you can't control the population. The advanced upgrades for these policies give less unrest and more profit but I haven't seen the AI build those yet.
7. The resources in a province are it's most important feature. Some mining upgrades require a certain resource to be present to make any profit for you.
8. Don't overlook public health buildings, squalor will sap you of your income.
9. Focusing on growth in your cities will increase your tax base and allow you to build up more recruiting centers. This is possibly the most important tip as you're missing out on faster army recruitment, growth in income, and a bigger "bank account" for emergencies.
10. Don't forget to specialize your cities with Regional Focus. Always have more Economic provinces than military. Military provinces should be built where there are basic metals present (iron, copper). I like to do it by region: I had two military provinces in Italy, one in Sicily and one in the Alps.
11. There's nothing wrong with doing a little turtling to develop your cities. Find borders you're happy with and hold them. Knowing where your enemies can come from will help with defense and troop allocation which in turn will help with upkeep. There's no need for 5 armies if 3 will be enough to hold the passes. Sometimes a full army in a fort will be enough to deter an attack. Over time you can build more armies if income will allow and use those that were defending for offense. The added benefit is that using a smaller number of armies to defend will help you utilize your armies more effectively since you now have offensive capability without sacrificing defense because you know how to do a lot with a little. This is more strategic than anything but effective use of your treasury is the goal.

I should note that these tips came from my Macedonian campaign which is still in progress. I'm confident they can be applied to other factions (maybe not barbarians).

[genghis_jap]

Some tips for a bigger, better economy

1. You'll always make more through taxation than trade simply because you get more tax bonus buildings and policies. Prioritize those if the public order allows it.
2. Mines are your friend. Watch for the public health penalty on later upgrades though.
3. Yellow and green faces are your goals for public order when it comes to setting the taxes. Blue faces are good in a pinch.
4. Make it a goal to have a city where your characters can get an education. More smarts = better governors
5. Don't forget to pass on any beneficial retinue to the proper characters. Develop your governors and generals accordingly.
6. Watch for any "Tax" policies, they're only meant to be used in desperate situations or when you have nothing else to build and your public order can handle the hit. If a settlement is particularly rebellious, look for these policies and get rid of them. The AI will build them sometimes and cause more harm than good for you if you can't control the population. The advanced upgrades for these policies give less unrest and more profit but I haven't seen the AI build those yet.
7. The resources in a province are it's most important feature. Some mining upgrades require a certain resource to be present to make any profit for you.
8. Don't overlook public health buildings, squalor will sap you of your income.
9. Focusing on growth in your cities will increase your tax base and allow you to build up more recruiting centers. This is possibly the most important tip as you're missing out on faster army recruitment, growth in income, and a bigger "bank account" for emergencies.
10. Don't forget to specialize your cities with Regional Focus. Always have more Economic provinces than military. Military provinces should be built where there are basic metals present (iron, copper). I like to do it by region: I had two military provinces in Italy, one in Sicily and one in the Alps.
11. There's nothing wrong with doing a little turtling to develop your cities. Find borders you're happy with and hold them. Knowing where your enemies can come from will help with defense and troop allocation which in turn will help with upkeep. There's no need for 5 armies if 3 will be enough to hold the passes. Sometimes a full army in a fort will be enough to deter an attack. Over time you can build more armies if income will allow and use those that were defending for offense. The added benefit is that using a smaller number of armies to defend will help you utilize your armies more effectively since you now have offensive capability without sacrificing defense because you know how to do a lot with a little. This is more strategic than anything but effective use of your treasury is the goal.

I should note that these tips came from my Macedonian campaign which is still in progress. I'm confident they can be applied to other factions (maybe not barbarians).

Hi,

In your fifth tip you say something about passing on retinue to your other generals. How do you do this? I figured that if I put a good govenor in the same city with some generals who are inexperienced they would learn from the good govenor. But the other generals never get retinue as the do not govern that city. What am I doing wrong then?

Thanks

[GaussSoldier]

1. Have the character with the retinue you want to pass on be in the same army or garrison as the character you want to pass it on to.
2. Look at the character page for one and left click and hold the retinue that you want to give.
3. While still holding the left mouse button, drag the retinue to the unit card for the character you want to pass it on to. Remember, they have to be in the same army or garrison.

Some retinue may be locked to the character that receives them though I'm not sure.

[genghis_jap]

1. Have the character with the retinue you want to pass on be in the same army or garrison as the character you want to pass it on to.
2. Look at the character page for one and left click and hold the retinue that you want to give.
3. While still holding the left mouse button, drag the retinue to the unit card for the character you want to pass it on to. Remember, they have to be in the same army or garrison.

Some retinue may be locked to the character that receives them though I'm not sure.

Ohh man, if only I knew this sooner.... I feel like an idiot. Was this possible with unmodded RTW?

[GaussSoldier]

yep

[Mr. Hammer]

You'll rarely be able to maintain an economy strong enough to build what you want in every city, or training stacks every turn.
You often have to make a choice between a good economy, or a strong army. If you train many men, have many stacks and large navies, you wont be able to build much at all. And if you build, you wont be able to recruit much.
Anyways, the AI can actually teach you quite a bit; they often build mines first, then they upgrade the Trade tree (Wine > Olive Oil > Salt...), and often build lots of temples as well as the Tax building.
Take a look at your financial screen, see where all that money is going. If it all disappears in army upkeep, you should either disband some units or use the armies well. Taking Sparta, Olympus and Argos would be a good start, as you then wont need to keep a stack in case the spartans attack. Try to take siciliy, and any are you might be able to hold with a minimum of troops. Limit your army upkeep to earn case for building your economy.

Mines are quite straight forward. They are expensive, but keep your economy going, try to always build one of these when you have an influx of cash. Remember to right click the mine before building it though. Regions with gold will make +600 a turn with a mine, +450 if the region contains silver, +1050 if it contains both, sometimes more. Some region will only receive a +10-20% tax increase, which is obviously not worth it at that cost.

The Tax building doesn't look very attractive at first glance (Tax I = 20% tax increase, 40% unrest increase). But each consecutive upgrade will increase the tax percentage by 10% and lower the unrest by 10% (Tax III = 40% tax increase, 20% unrest increase). In case this wasn't clear, the unrest/tax doesn't stack, but the next level overwrites the last. ALWAYS make sure you have built all the requirements for Tax II before you build Tax I, the unrest can be disastrous if you don't lower it quickly. Tax is generally better to build than trade.

The Trade buildings can increase your income by quite a bit. Always build the Wine Trade in regions with wine, always upgrade it to Olive Oil in regions with olive oil. If the region doesn't contain any of the resources for the following upgrades there are other building you should rather build, like Trade Expedition.

Take a look at the trade screen for your big cities. If they trade a lot by land, build roads, if they trade a lot by sea, build docks.
Docks are often better to build than markets/forums/curia etc. Send a diplomat to get trade with every single nation.

Taxing the people can net you a bunch of money each turn too. It would probably be worth it to build a bunch of temples and wells so you can put the taxes on very high while still having control of the unrest. If you can take a city, but know you wont be able to hold it, go ahead and take it, exterminate it, destroy any enemy building you can't use later (barracks and temples) and you'll earn quite a bit.
I was having real problems stopping the Parthians as Seleucia, but I had the opportunity to take Nisa, so I took it, burnt it down, retreated back with all my men and enjoyed a nifty 30K. I took it again later, repeating the above, but lost it to rebels. The third time I took the city, only 400 citizens remained in the proud parthian capital

[CTD_or_Bust]

Sometimes a full army in a fort will be enough to deter an attack.

Brilliant quote there. Thank you GaussSoldier.

It's not related to economy but the AI in all my experience responds to what you have. It won't send 5 archers to take a full stack garrisoned in a city. It'll send a full stack (or two). If your army is in a fort nearby however the AI just might send that 5 archer army and get creamed as you pick apart their attacks piece by piece. Excellent advice.

[GaussSoldier]

That was actually not my point but now that I think about it, it's a very viable tactic.

I guess I never thought of it that way because I was more concerned about having an army close enough to counterattack. In my experience, a full stack close to a possible target would be enough to buy me time or deter an attack completely.

I do hope someone is getting use out of this thread as the economy seems to be a sticking point for the newbies.

Hate to think it's going to waste

[Zom]

Not much to add to what Gauss and Hammer offered, except "balance". Develop each region in a balanced manner. Equal emphasis on happiness, law, economy/military. Choose between economy and military, do not build for both in a region until much later in the game. Have an academy in every city, and a Ludus within one move distance of every new FM as he comes of age. Train up your young FMs for a couple years if you can.

Wait on expansion until you have developed an economy that will support your field army(ies) while still allowing money for at least one major building per turn, preferably several per turn. I like to put a fort in strategic mountain passes to protect my border, man them with a single cheap unit to maintain them, and have one strong reserve force for counter attacks covering as many forts as possible. Keep down your costs for armies in the field until your economy can handle more.

Crank up the taxes as high as you can, even if the faces become blue. Check your lists of regions every turn to be sure no face has turned red, first thing in your turn. Buy those cheap, single turn temples to add one heart in a turn if needed. I don't worry about negative population growth; once my legions are ready to march there will be slaves aplenty. But keep those taxes flowing.

And keep your builds balanced.

[Hoplite of Ilis]

Thanks.

[crackerjack1348]

Great advice in this thread, I'm new to the mod and my first Roman campaign was pretty lame.

I'm playing the 1 turn campaign as Rome now and I wanted to hold on to Emporiae from the start. It was a slugging match with Carthage and Spain until I could retrain my units in Spain and now I've conquered probably more than half. I don't have the manpower to hold the barbarian settlements so I've just been depopulating and destroying every building and then letting the Gallecai take them back while I use the money to kick start the Italian economy.

I used to get really annoyed that the AI would just send endless stacks in 0-turn so I switched to 1-turn and have started looting and destroying the closest enemy settlements, that seems to keep them at bay. Plus when I sacked Gergovia (sp?) in central Gaul, it rebelled and the Arverni are allied with the Roman rebeles, but don't launch attacks through their lands which is allowing me time to finish off the barbarians in Spain before I shore up my borders with Gaul. Massalia is a client state and great buffer.

Carthage hasn't seemed to have learned their lesson , so once I conquer or cripple the Spanish I'll probably invade Africa.

Great, great mod. Adds the depth I was looking for and is VERY challenging!!!! I was playing Napoleon TW and saw the legionary eagle which made me want to conquer Europe as Rome before I came back to Napoleon. I'm really glad I spent the $10 to buy Rome Gold and Alexander on steam.

[crackerjack1348]

Mouse over the retinue you want to give to your younger general and click and drag it to his portrait. Be aware that this removes it from the governor you're taking it from. It doesn't copy and paste it or something, which is why he recommends only doing this when the governor is old and on death's doorstep

[Zom]

It is also a handy way to get rid of undesirable retainers. If I have an FM who has lost loyalty and I no longer trust, I like to stick him in one of the forts that I use to guard the approaches to my borders. On the way to his new home, he can visit other FMs and pick up a Corrupt Judge or Sloppy Scribe.

[redxavier]

What I found helpful was to only build the Jupiter, Ceres and Mercury temple lines, building the others only when the extra happiness was really needed in a city (usually in highly populated cities with lots of squalor). The latter of these increase tax or trade, whilst Jupiter is the only temple that gives you an order bonus without a penalty to tax.

Also:
- Make sure you use your diplomat and get as many trade right agreements as possible
- Sell map information to other factions, you should be able to get 2000 from each faction
- Sack the larger cities when you capture them, you should be able to net quite a bit of money (5-10k) and it really helps with keeping order afterwards
- An army in a well located fort can relieve one of several besieged cities, removing the necessity of having a sizable garrison in each of those cities

[Zom]

- Sack the larger cities when you capture them, you should be able to net quite a bit of money (5-10k) and it really helps with keeping order afterwards

By "sack" do you mean enslave? Or depopulate? If I plan to keep a city as part of my planned expansion, then I always enslave. Never just occupy a city. Enslaving sends a message who the boss is, and makes up for sacrificing population growth for keeping taxes high in your home cities. Even plebs want to own slaves.

But if I am on a punitive expedition, I depopulate and reduce every building to gold. Now that is what I call "sacking" a city.

[redxavier]

By "sack" do you mean enslave? Or depopulate? If I plan to keep a city as part of my planned expansion, then I always enslave. Never just occupy a city. Enslaving sends a message who the boss is, and makes up for sacrificing population growth for keeping taxes high in your home cities. Even plebs want to own slaves. But if I am on a punitive expedition, I depopulate and reduce every building to gold. Now that is what I call "sacking" a city.

Sorry, I meant depopulate (which is followed up, as you do, by destroying any building I don't like!). I'm tempted to then just abandon the settlement afterwards, especially the Transalpine Gaul area, as the Spanish Galleaci faction seem to be really aggressive at the moment and constantly bludgeoning the 2 legions I have in the area (which are being rotated). But I've discovered a few times that allowing a settlement to go rebel spawns an army near Capua (that I'd rather not deal with).

Sometimes, if I'm trying to expand my home cities, I'll enslave. But I'm more or less ok with the populations in most of my cities (except Capua, which is <1000 still, probably because I killed most of its population taking it back from rebels at the start of the game).

[Post Hoc]

My economy is so good that the scripts take money away from me

[GaussSoldier]

My economy is so good that the scripts take money away from me

Same, my treasury can't break 200,000k. Fortunately, investing in armies is never a wasted effort. Rome has finally come knocking and even after taking Sicily and lower Italy, there doesn't seem to be an end to their aggression.

On sacking, I have found that it really helps when you have an army that you can't reinforce but can't risk taking out of a city. I currently have an army in Capua that started fresh and after 13 or so turns, all units have 1 to 3 silver chevrons. As I type this, a 10th army is being recruited to replace the one in Capua until my army farther south can link up.

A stable front is what you get when you depopulate a city, especially when you don't care to move your capital. The money doesn't hurt either but when you have to spend 70% of your income on construction, you hardly notice it.