Perfect world

[Ciloron]

Why are we striving for a perfect world? It makes no sense and it can't be achieved. Why can't it be achieved?

Its because of freedom. In a perfect world, everyone should be free, but how? People will always need rules, but humans can't always follow them. Furthermore, we can't be free in a perfect world, we would be captives of an illusion.

Imagine a perfect world. In order to keep things perfect, nothing should be changed. So everyone has to stay 'perfect', unchanged. That means there is no freedom to develop yourself. If you would you could destroy the perfect world.

So if there is no freedom, is that world so perfect? I think a perfect world is an illusion, produced by mankind's desire for more, our malcontent.

So what about total freedom?

Impossible, mankind needs rules to live by. If they dont have rules, they turn into mindless savages, since everything is permitted. The human race wants rules, thats why they started to develop religions and laws. Nowadays ethics play a huge role in our civilizations, but ethics are but mental restraints. These are the reasons of total freedom's impossibility.

[AqD]

It's achieved if we all die. There would be no more desire to achieve anything, add anything or remove anything.


Emptiness is the ultimate perfection.

[The Kybrothilian]

There can be no perfect world, for each and everyone of us has his or her own idea of a perfect world, which inevitably contradicts with those of other people. In order for us ti create a perfect world, everyone would have to be of the same mind and thoughts. This, of course, is impossible unless you wipe out from existence everyone else and replace them with clones of yourself, or perhaps by brainwashing the entire world.

It could be, that the idea of the perfect world itself is an imperfect idea, and that we shouldn't try to achieve it at all.

[Biggieboy]

A perfect world is impossible; that's the nature of the beast. But we CAN strife to improve on every level. Yet the closer we come to perfection, the further we seem to be removed from it. At least, that's how I feel it.

[SparksNow]

There can be no perfect world, for each and everyone of us has his or her own idea of a perfect world, which inevitably contradicts with those of other people. In order for us ti create a perfect world, everyone would have to be of the same mind and thoughts. This, of course, is impossible unless you wipe out from existence everyone else and replace them with clones of yourself, or perhaps by brainwashing the entire world.

That's my thought - that 'perfect' is a purely subjective view - only expressed better.

It could be, that the idea of the perfect world itself is an imperfect idea, and that we shouldn't try to achieve it at all.

I like that thought.

A perfect world is impossible; that's the nature of the beast. But we CAN strife to improve on every level. Yet the closer we come to perfection, the further we seem to be removed from it. At least, that's how I feel it.

What exactly do you mean? (from "But we..." onwards)

[Biggieboy]

What exactly do you mean? (from "But we..." onwards)

I mean, maybe perfection can't be achieved, but each person individually can try to make the world a better place: be nice to other people, help the ones in need of help, further scientific advance, anything that can count as an improvement, and all the little things add up to a lot.

[Morkonan]

Why are we striving for a perfect world? It makes no sense and it can't be achieved. Why can't it be achieved?...

You miss the point, entirely, within the meme for "striving for a perfect world." The fact is that we know we can never attain perfection. It's not about the attainment of the goal, it's about the struggle to reach it.

As Biggieboy stated "I mean, maybe perfection can't be achieved, but each person individually can try to make the world a better place: be nice to other people, help the ones in need of help, further scientific advance, anything that can count as an improvement, and all the little things add up to a lot. "

This is meaningful. This doesn't suborn anyone's will. If it does, then I contend that person's "will" is destructive and is, itself, freedom-limiting and should be acted against.

By setting a goal of "perfection" then there is no self-limiting definition present within the scope of that word. If I said "Make the world better by feeding everyone." then that would imply that feeding everyone would be all that we should strive for. What if it was "be kind to everyone", alone? Well, kindness is all well, but what if through kindness we become cruel? That's possible, you know. If I do nothing but take care of people, feed them, say nice things to them, but never seek to educate them or prepare them to take care of themselves, what kind of world am I helping to create?

Strive for perfection. It is enough.

[AqD]

You miss the point, entirely, within the meme for "striving for a perfect world." The fact is that we know we can never attain perfection. It's not about the attainment of the goal, it's about the struggle to reach it.

Does it not seem stupid to struggle forever for something we can never achieve?

[Arbitrary Crusader]

Never going to happens. Unless everyone have the same thought of a perfect world and same share the same exactly detail, lifestyle, etc.

Then to them it a perfect world.

[Morkonan]

Does it not seem stupid to struggle forever for something we can never achieve?

Not at all. We do it everyday.

If a man say's to himself "I want to be the best husband and father I can be" and then works towards that, will he ever reach it? Probably not. He's human, flawed and imperfect. But, as he struggles, he'll make things much better than he would have if he just decided to be more attentive to his wife and to help the kids with their homework.

[Lazarus]

Does it not seem stupid to struggle forever for something we can never achieve?

It's hardly stupid. Shoot for the stars, if you fall, you still land in the sky.

For example, my perfect world is a world without anger or hate (read my sig, it's true). I'm not daft. Unless I gather up all a whole bunch of 7.62's and strap on an AK that'll never be possible. But because of this dream of mine, this far off, impossible goal, I make a point whenever I reach one of those choices in life to take the kinder route.

Is there still anger and hate in the world? Absolutely. In fact, I get angry all the time, and there are a few people that I hate so completely that I might actually kill them if I could get away with it. But ever since I adopted this policy there has been a marked decrease in anger and hate in my life.

So. If we keep aiming for a perfect world, while we won't have a perfect world, we can get a better one then what we started with.

[truth1337]

Why are we striving for a perfect world? It makes no sense and it can't be achieved. Why can't it be achieved?

To achieve something you must first define it. "Perfect world" is a both abstract and subjective term.

Its because of freedom. In a perfect world, everyone should be free, but how? People will always need rules, but humans can't always follow them. Furthermore, we can't be free in a perfect world, we would be captives of an illusion.

Why should all people be free? What about those who love subjugation? And for those who don't love subjugation, is their freedom necessarily the best option, if they choose to use it poorly, or when the well-being of all would be maximized if someone took charge? And why would maximization of well-being be the ultimate goal? What if people feel well while they live, but only the worst have offspring, and with the least matching partners? Isn't what matters the most in the end rather who survives genetically? The best representatives of genes close to yours, to maximize that as much as possible of you lives on in a thousand generations from today...

Imagine a perfect world. In order to keep things perfect, nothing should be changed. So everyone has to stay 'perfect', unchanged. That means there is no freedom to develop yourself. If you would you could destroy the perfect world.

An interesting thought. But is the "perfect world" really absolutely static also on a subatomic level - nothing moves at all, like the death of the universe predicted by some by thermodynamics?

So if there is no freedom, is that world so perfect? I think a perfect world is an illusion, produced by mankind's desire for more, our malcontent.

Perfect world is a subjective term and every time it is used, it is a mirror of the personality of the one who uses it. Freedom is apparently important to you - is it because you live in repression or because you're individualistic? Will your ranking of freedom be higher or lower compared to other things at other times? Are men more interested in freedom and justice because of the 1.06 gender ratio at birth, because freedom and justice in the struggle for the limited resource of females affects him, whereas women value physical well-being and peace higher?

Impossible, mankind needs rules to live by. If they dont have rules, they turn into mindless savages, since everything is permitted.

Savages and animals also have rules, encoded in their instincts, and sometimes even in a form of "culture" that is taught from generation to generation. Even monkey herds show signs of culture, whereas almost any social group animal tends to develop altruism instincts. Do we really need rules, or is a good heart and lynching of selfish more effective for keeping the gene pool clean of suppressive and parasitic people? Isn't the whole idea of trying to formulate the infinite wisdom of our instinctive sense of right and wrong into rules a mistake from the beginning? At the very least, when foreigners rule over a people and impose their sense of right and wrong phrased in rules, the result is often not particularly good, whereas if local rulers do the same, they at least will resemble the instincts shared by the people, provided he does a good linguistical job...

The human race wants rules, thats why they started to develop religions and laws. Nowadays ethics play a huge role in our civilizations, but ethics are but mental restraints. These are the reasons of total freedom's impossibility.

Rules were invented because when organizing bigger societies, the rulers couldn't see what all people did and who was right and who was wrong, or have time to decide who was right and who was wrong, so he needed to delegate it. Rules of ethics and a desire to punish evil, in themselves, have always existed instinctively even before civilization - everybody should for example know the feeling of anger they get instinctively when reading in a newspaper about some child molestor who got a too low sentence. The conversion of these instincts into written rules, often poorly, is the only thing civilization can be given credit for.

[Rinan]

OP just read Thomas Moore?

[Dude with the Food]

Does it not seem stupid to struggle forever for something we can never achieve?

Ask yourself why you live. You breathe yet one day, inevitably you will die. Why do you breathe? You can never achieve a life without death.

[Col. Tartleton]

It's achieved if we all die. There would be no more desire to achieve anything, add anything or remove anything.

Emptiness is the ultimate perfection.

Buddhism

Or Why I'm Far Too Happy Depressed To Kill Myself

[Aurelius Silvanus Tacitus]

Perfection sould not be understood as a static point, but a dynamic process of improvement, of the world and humanity in general, for the common good.
The word associated with it is progress. As long as the world moves in the direction of utopia, at the fastest speed it can muster, then that is perfection.
If humanity dedicates as much resources for the common good, then that is perfection, even if the quantity of resources would switch, as long as the effort is the same, then that is perfection.

Perfection is the iron will of humanity to achieve it.

PS: sorry for necroposting, quite badly, but there have been no new threads and this seemed like the approapiate thread for such subject

[Diocle]

Did you necropost on this thread just to write down a questionable elegy to Determinism in utopian socialist sauce?