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Thread: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

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  1. #1

    Default Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    A Dance with Dragons; 2nd Tyrion Chapter
    The Freehold’s grasp had reached as far as Dragonstone, but never to the mainland of Westeros itself. Odd, that. Dragonstone is no more than a rock. The wealth was farther west, but they had dragons. Surely they knew that it was there.

    Ever since Tyrion brought this up I have wondered the same thing. Why were the Valyrians who ruled all of the Valyrian peninsula, old Ghis and Slaver's Bay, and the majority of the present-day Free Cities as well as making slaving incursions into Sothyros either unable or unwilling to conquer Westeros when they had at their disposal vast well-trained legions, slaves galore, pyromancers, storm-singers, blood mages, metallurgical ensorcellment, and, of course, dragons?

    Westeros at the time would have been populated only with the petty kings of the first men and later the squabbling Andals and Rhoynar. All that time they made no move when they had clearly shown aggressive expansionist motives.

    Then, shortly after the Doom, Aegon flees to Dragonstone with his immediate family and the world's last remaining dragons apparently uncontent to rule Volantis or any other of Valyria's one-time holdings and throws thousands of years of caution to the winds and conquers nearly all of Westeros in short order with three dragons and a handfull of hastily drafted levies.

    Something must have kept them in check in antiquity or they would have steam-rolled them then as Aegon did, but what was it?

    My own take is that, sorcery being so much more potent back then (perhaps much more than the maesters would have us believe, but that is an entirely different can of worms), the cause likely lies there. That and the only thing that Westeros had that nowhere else does is the Children of the Forest(they have the Others, but not at that point, I think). The first men, through their pact with the Children, seem to have the affinity for Greensight. It is mentioned and demonstrated in the books that controlling the dragons for military endeavors required the use of binding spells and possibly empowered bloodlines and that they were used in all the conquests as a nigh-unbeatable, general trump card. If a beastling or a greenseer were able to warg into an enslaved dragon I can only imagine the potential havoc. But they managed to maintain Dragonstone, I presume, because so near a volcano their magics, which seem to rely heavily on fire, would have been strengthened.

    So the most advanced military in the world employing massive beasts of destruction failed where a bunch of half-naked, self-mutilating zealots succeeded. In the course of their conquest the Andals burned every weirwood they could, slaughtered the Children wherever they found them, and called down beastlings and greenseers as demonspawn to the point that even the First Men began to abandon the practice. All this, I believe, weakened the sorcerous defences of Westeros and perhaps whatever greater warding the Children may have had in place. Why the Valyrians failed to capitalize on it, I don't know. Perhaps at that point they had aquiesced to the fact that one does not simply walk into Westeros if one is a dragon.

    I thought this was an interesting topic and potentially relevant to mod updates/submods in the very distant future. Though how how any of it might be worked in I don't know, but a few other fantasy mods seem to incorporate magic to varying degees.

    I'm interested to know what my fellow crackpot theorists think.

  2. #2
    Vahir's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    I hadn't noticed this, but now that you mention it, it's odd. Then again, a lot of things about Valyria are inexplicable. We know very, very little about it.

  3. #3
    Pinkie Pie's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    A good theory but I can only consider it all crap (not meant as an insult but it is 3 am here and i can not be arsed with sugar coating this).

    1: The Andal's arrived long before the Valyrian Freehold rose up.
    2: The Rhoynish fled the Valyrian expansion 700 years before Aegon landed (300 years before the books start).
    3: Aegon did not "flee" to Dragonstone then attack Westeros, the Doom of Valyria happened around a century before Aegon landed.

    We do not have enough information to even make theories.
    Did the Valyrians enjoy total dominance over their empire or were there constant slave revolts that kept them busy?
    Did Valyria itself take Dragonstone or was it an isolated group that took it and thus most of the Valyrians would not even know Westeros existed.
    Were there many civil wars and fighting between different Valyrian families vying for power?
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    Inarus's Avatar In Laziness We Trust
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by martin616 View Post
    A good theory but I can only consider it all crap (not meant as an insult but it is 3 am here and i can not be arsed with sugar coating this).
    And people wonder why others hate this subforum's community...




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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Inarus View Post
    And people wonder why others hate this subforum's community...
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Inarus View Post
    And people wonder why others hate this subforum's community...
    A flawed theory I will be kind to but that was what I consider a crackpot theory and a crackpot theory is, well its silly at the best of times and down right moronic at the worst.
    "I, Pinkie Pie, declare that these treats are fit for a king, or a queen, or a princess!"
    "Me? Ruin? I'm not the ruiner, I'm the ruinee! Or is it ruinness? Ruinette?"
    "She's ahead of the litter all right. The pick of the litter. The cat's pajamas. Oh wait. Why would Applejack take some poor kitty's pj's? That's not very sporting of her."
    "More balloons! No, that's too many balloons. More candy! No, less candy. Ooh! I know! Streamers!"
    "Oh my gosh. Hold on to your hooves – I am just about to be brilliant!"

  7. #7

    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Or were the Targaryens not even a major political power in the Freehold, just one of the few surviving families?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    ^could be. thats my guess

  9. #9
    Pinkie Pie's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    The Targaryens could have been servants for all we know.
    "I, Pinkie Pie, declare that these treats are fit for a king, or a queen, or a princess!"
    "Me? Ruin? I'm not the ruiner, I'm the ruinee! Or is it ruinness? Ruinette?"
    "She's ahead of the litter all right. The pick of the litter. The cat's pajamas. Oh wait. Why would Applejack take some poor kitty's pj's? That's not very sporting of her."
    "More balloons! No, that's too many balloons. More candy! No, less candy. Ooh! I know! Streamers!"
    "Oh my gosh. Hold on to your hooves – I am just about to be brilliant!"

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    Valandur's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    GRRM did a reading from a World of Ice and Fire not that long ago.
    The Targaryens were a minor house when about a hundred years before the Doom, some family member (a female) happened to foretell that Valyria would go boom so they sort of exiled themselves to Dragonstone. Aegon helped the Storm King with some of his wars in the Free Cities and when the Storm King wanted a formal alliance, Aegon offered to marry Orys (his half brother) to the Storm King's daughter. The Storm King kind of took that as an insult, mutilated the envoys and Aegon sat down with his sisters and Orys (his most trusted friend and general) and pretty much said, "Ok, I want Westeros, they bow to me or die".

    So he lands, subdues the Lords of what was then the Crownlands and is like, "Ok, Orys, take the army and deal with the Storm King, and I'll deal with Harren". So Orys goes to the Storm King and the Storm King sallies forth and dies. Orys marries his daughter. Thus starts House Baratheon. Note: Orys name was Baratheon, that was not the Storm King's name.
    Aegon goes and burns out Harren, Fields of Fire, Arryn surrenders, Torhenn bends the knee, Dorne resistance, you know the rest.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Valandur View Post
    GRRM did a reading from a World of Ice and Fire not that long ago.
    Any news on the release date? One place listed 30 Oct. 2012 and another had Oct. 2013. Same ol' same ol', really, but has anyone heard otherwise?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by deusvult6 View Post
    Any news on the release date? One place listed 30 Oct. 2012 and another had Oct. 2013. Same ol' same ol', really, but has anyone heard otherwise?
    I've heard Oct. 2013 as well.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    I seem to recall Targs owned Dragonstone some centuries before the Disaster, but cannot find the quote. Also Do not forget other Valyrian houses were in Westeros, like Velaryons, whoose ethnic group is "western valyrian", not sure what this may mean...

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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    I guess that families like Targaryen and Velaryon had been present at Dragonstone for some time, and maybe even married into Westerosi families, but that the ruling people decided Westeros was too far away to care about.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by martin616 View Post
    1: The Andal's arrived long before the Valyrian Freehold rose up.
    2: The Rhoynish fled the Valyrian expansion 700 years before Aegon landed (300 years before the books start).
    3: Aegon did not "flee" to Dragonstone then attack Westeros, the Doom of Valyria happened around a century before Aegon landed.
    A trip to ASOIAF Wiki helped me straighten my dates. Didn't realize just how far back the Andals went. According to wiki their invasion occurred 4000-6000 years ago while the Valyrian Freehold began expanding ~5000 years ago but to the east, the Ghiscari Empire, and ~1000 years ago to the north, the Rhoynar, and only about 400 years ago did they found Dragonstone. With a timeline like that I suppose it's not so remarkable after all except that George pointed it out, which, by itself, means little.

    Which is too bad, I was really looking forward to seeing Bran and Ghost Jon Snow warg into two of the dragons, eat Daenerys and Aegon, and proceed to annhilate the Others. Then Ghost Jon Targaryen, newly legitimized by the reigning King of Winter, Bran, would take his place on the Iron Throne and, honestly, who would rebel against a direwolf king with three enthralled dragons? But I guess we're back to doing it the hard way.

    Quote Originally Posted by martin616 View Post
    The Targaryens could have been servants for all we know.
    No, it was mentioned at some point that the Targaryens were nobility. One of the elected rulers or not is not said, but I imagine the setup was similar to the noblility of present-day Volantis only with dragons.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Is a Valyrian army, apart from dragons, ever mentioned?

    And on another note, Valyria might have been afraid that anyone conquering Westeros with dragons could gain enough power to perhaps challenge Valyria. Or maybe the Valyrians thought conquering Westeros was pointless.

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    Pinkie Pie's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Judging by the amount of time it took for them to expand over each area of Essos I am guessing they either expanded very slowly and thus would have went for Westeros in another few thousand years or they had a lot of issues with rebellions.
    "I, Pinkie Pie, declare that these treats are fit for a king, or a queen, or a princess!"
    "Me? Ruin? I'm not the ruiner, I'm the ruinee! Or is it ruinness? Ruinette?"
    "She's ahead of the litter all right. The pick of the litter. The cat's pajamas. Oh wait. Why would Applejack take some poor kitty's pj's? That's not very sporting of her."
    "More balloons! No, that's too many balloons. More candy! No, less candy. Ooh! I know! Streamers!"
    "Oh my gosh. Hold on to your hooves – I am just about to be brilliant!"

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    I think they just saw Westeros as a backwater continent and didn't really care about them. Or maybe they were afraid of the Maesters or Wargs killing/taking control of the dragons.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    On the valaria topic, i was rereading AFFC and found this in Arya chapter;


    "The first Faceless Man was one who did."
    "Who was he?" Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.
    "No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered... until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.
    "All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces... and he was that god’s instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given."
    Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"
    "He would bring the gift to them as well... but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one."


    It got me thinking, did the faceless men cause the doom?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Valyria and Westeros (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by King in the North29 View Post
    On the valaria topic, i was rereading AFFC and found this in Arya chapter;


    "The first Faceless Man was one who did."
    "Who was he?" Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.
    "No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered... until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.
    "All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces... and he was that god’s instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given."
    Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"
    "He would bring the gift to them as well... but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one."


    It got me thinking, did the faceless men cause the doom?
    I fail to see how killing off some slaves could cause a "smoking sea", and create demons that prowl over the ruins of the city

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