[HISTORICAL ISSUE] - Vitezovi and slavic knight titles

[NikeBG]

well I consider Bulgaria to belong into Byzantine military group, with significant steppe influence, the earlier the more of it, and I am fairly certain most people think same way... whether one likes it or not I see much more similarity between Bulgaria and Byzantines than Bulgaria and France.

Well there is nor really point in further disscusion, your attitude is just getting more and more agresive. Dosta filozofiranja i pametovanja.

I've bolded the part why I brought up the issue - namely that you are putting your words or opinions into other people's mouths. As I've said, no one here has so far claimed that the Bulgarians are not part of the Byzantine sphere of influence or "fashion". The only claim was that the Byzantine "fashion" itself might have became more and more Western. So, it's not a matter of us liking it or not, as you repeatedly claim.

[Hrobatos]

its a natural result of Latin Crusade, and decline of Byzantines, just like Ottoman invasion has brought manny new styles of clothing and uniforms into Europe.
Yet Ottoman fashion still remain separate from West European despite great deal of influence that each group did on the other one.

Would the difference between Byzantines and West European became smaller and smaller if Ottomans came later? It probably would but would that happen same way if there was no Latin Crusade? maybe then Byznatines could keep up with Italian and German smiths with quality of armors.

[NikeBG]

I doubt it. Maybe if there were no Angeloi and in their place was a new series of strong and competent emperors to revive the economy - yeah. Otherwise, Byzantium (and everyone in its sphere) wouldn't have been able to seriously compete with the West, IMO.

[Slaytaninc]

I doubt it. Maybe if there were no Angeloi and in their place was a new series of strong and competent emperors to revive the economy - yeah. Otherwise, Byzantium (and everyone in its sphere) wouldn't have been able to seriously compete with the West, IMO.

Part of the Byzantine Empire's strength was the fact that it was much more advanced than the west. This changed rapidly after the late 11th century. Being squeezed from two directions from societies now as advanced as you are isn't easy.

[phoenix[illusion]]

I doubt it. Maybe if there were no Angeloi and in their place was a new series of strong and competent emperors to revive the economy - yeah. Otherwise, Byzantium (and everyone in its sphere) wouldn't have been able to seriously compete with the West, IMO.

Part of the Byzantine Empire's strength was the fact that it was much more advanced than the west. This changed rapidly after the late 11th century. Being squeezed from two directions from societies now as advanced as you are isn't easy.

i do agree. i mean, neither were ottomans "technologically advanced", even for that time they had very light or no armor, managed to conquer very large parts and nations. byzantine empire fell cause of many reasons, but technology was not one of them. more like lots of civil wars, expenses, mercenary troops, latin conquerors, wars with factions in the east, with north of them, and crusades etc. with that much trouble they didn't stand a chance of surviving. fall of byzantium is just a result of previous 200 years before it.

Would the difference between Byzantines and West European became smaller and smaller if Ottomans came later? It probably would but would that happen same way if there was no Latin Crusade? maybe then Byznatines could keep up with Italian and German smiths with quality of armors.

well, it's not like we see it today. why would they "keep up"? byzantines were very ethnocentric, and they were thinking of them as successors of roman culture and empire. for them mostly western or any kind of people were not even close for themselves. and consider why would plate armor be "advanced armor". it has it's own strength and weaknesses. for me, comparing armor from 14th-15th century west with east as western better is not legit, cause they do the same, protect, and both have their advantage and disadvantage. it's like comparing AK47 and M16. technological advance is f.e. cannons and not having cannons. armor is there to protect, and it depends of tactic of units. byzantine armor was based mostly on fighting middle east factions.

[Hrobatos]

keep up because I am assuming Germans and Italians would develop new technonlgies, armors and weapons as they did, thus would Byzantines, if some events went in another direction do the same? Ottomans had completely different tactical aproach from West but they kept their race for a long time, even do they were, in the end with Age of Exploration no longer able to keep up with West.

[NikeBG]

i do agree. i mean, neither were ottomans "technologically advanced", even for that time they had very light or no armor, managed to conquer very large parts and nations. byzantine empire fell cause of many reasons, but technology was not one of them. more like lots of civil wars, expenses, mercenary troops, latin conquerors, wars with factions in the east, with north of them, and crusades etc. with that much trouble they didn't stand a chance of surviving. fall of byzantium is just a result of previous 200 years before it.

Indeed, there were too many factors for the fall of Byzantium. Though, like with every other country, I'd say the main problem was that it simply got old. I like comparing states to people - some of them die at childbirth or during childhood, others are killed in their prime, while thirds die from natural exhaustion. Byzantium (and "classical Rome" before that) is an example of the latter, IMO. In addition, it was too mighty (in the earlier periods), too sure of itself, which eventually made it rely on its old laurels and not progress as much. And by progress I don't mean simply technological progress, but even more so social one. For a state to survive long, it needs to be like a phoenix, to continuously reignite the fire of its society and rejuvenate itself.

well, it's not like we see it today. why would they "keep up"? byzantines were very ethnocentric, and they were thinking of them as successors of roman culture and empire. for them mostly western or any kind of people were not even close for themselves. and consider why would plate armor be "advanced armor". it has it's own strength and weaknesses. for me, comparing armor from 14th-15th century west with east as western better is not legit, cause they do the same, protect, and both have their advantage and disadvantage. it's like comparing AK47 and M16. technological advance is f.e. cannons and not having cannons. armor is there to protect, and it depends of tactic of units. byzantine armor was based mostly on fighting middle east factions.

I very, very much agree with this. I love linking to one thread I found this year and although it's not the be-all-end-all on the matter, I think it's quite good. And as we somewhat recently discussed also in the TGC forum, comparing armours can be a bit like comparing apples and oranges - they're both fruits, but they have different purposes of use. F.e., simplistically speaking, mail is a better armour in melee warfare, while scale and lamellar offer better protection in ranged warfare (and blunt damage, IIRC). Respectively, full plate (including non-full one - I just want to separate it from scale and lamellar, which are also essentially (segmented) plate armours) has its advantages as well, but it's also not the be-all-end-all, as its popular stereotype suggests.

[duletheman]

There was no german knights i medieval Serbia. Where did u find that? Also gusars? I have to say that the vikings are rusian sailors, so they are slavic people, and all nordic people are slavic. Germans appropriated vikings, like many other historical facts and nations. Entire official history is fabricated at the expense of slavs. They were presented like barbarians, but they were greatest nation in the old world. Even today they are most numerous people, despite many exodus made by our western friends.
I could not wait this mode, but now i am little disappointed. Wrong history, but not your fault...

[Hrobatos]

Really, if all Nordics are Slavic how come they speak Germanic language? Dear god Tsardoms just keeps attracting lunatics

[Wallachian]

That's exactly what I was thinking Hrobatos. We are getting more and more people with wild ridiculous theories. I mean claiming that the Vikings were Russian is just...I wonder what the Danes, Norwegians or Swedes would think of that.

[phoenix[illusion]]

There was no german knights i medieval Serbia. Where did u find that? Also gusars?

umm, i don't know how much you know about serbian history at all. first thing you learn is lazar and battle of kosovo, second thing is about stefan dušan. german mercenary were firstly recorded in time of stefan dečanski, father of dušan, and they were recorded in battle of velbužd, later to be found in many other documents during dušan's rule as germanic personal guard (300 of them). it's a strong fact, one of sure things (unlike hussars), and even we know name of leader of german guards called palman bracht. they later became core of dušan's army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palman

as for gusars, in code of dušan he states that krajišnici should defend their borders from gusars (meaning plunders). probably it came from greek unit korsaroi, light cavalry. in hungary many serbians were employed as hussars, and it is believed that it comes from word gusar, since gusar come from korsaroi, meaning light cavalry, which were all three units connections

if you are interested, you have very good article on wikipedia, somebody used all our sources and put on wikipedia, which i'm highly pleased. as you can see, most of the stuff are from our forum (i can see especially by artillery part, also ian heath's book)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Serbian_army

[duletheman]

I do now something about history, and it interests me, but i saw a german bodygard unit, not german mercenaries. this is not the same, but now i realize why you put bodygards, it is because tsar dusan`s gard. my excuse for this..
as for gusars, for medieval serbs, they where plain bandits, at sea, also on land. hussars where elite unit, not only in hungary. exept name similarity i see no connection.
I have to tell that i fully support your work, and all included on this project have my respect!

somebody called me a lunatic, if i tell u that germans separated from slavs 3000 b.c., how would u call me now? sometimes all white blonde people (you decide which) where one people. in time differences increased, and today we have many nations.

[phoenix[illusion]]

I do now something about history, and it interests me, but i saw a german bodygard unit, not german mercenaries. this is not the same, but now i realize why you put bodygards, it is because tsar dusan`s gard. my excuse for this..

take a look at the description of our mod. it starts in 1345, when dusan was king (before becoming a tsar)
germans in dusan's serbia were mostly employed for bodyguard unit, which had fearsome strike on enemy, cause they were heavy cav.

as for gusars, for medieval serbs, they where plain bandits, at sea, also on land. hussars where elite unit, not only in hungary. exept name similarity i see no connection.
I have to tell that i fully support your work, and all included on this project have my respect!

this mod goes from 1345 to 1530. many of the units are actually gain through "era" system, f.e. era of cannons, you get cannons. so as hussars. hussar units were reply to ottoman light cav. considering that both polish and hungarian hussars were partly made from serbian light cavalrymen, fled from ottomans, we can assume adding same unit for serbia, cause m2tw is "what if" system. we can call them light serbian cav, but i like name gusar more, cause gusar is equal light cav. again i explained to you, byzantine light cav called Chosarioi, considering influence of byz empire on serbia, we can assume similar unit excised in serbia (don't forget that many words were changed from greek f.e. pronoia to pronija). they were meaning bandit in whay cause this kind of byz unit was functioning in "hit and run" or "pillage and run" . and what is most important, it was formed of men who already fought in that style, and hussars were functioning, so, we can assume similar unit excised before forming it in hungary as hussars.

somebody called me a lunatic, if i tell u that germans separated from slavs 3000 b.c., how would u call me now? sometimes all white blonde people (you decide which) where one people. in time differences increased, and today we have many nations.

ok, man, this is very sensitive topic, and even best historians are still arguing about slav homeland. first of all, many of the "so called peoples" were actually factions. through history you see many people rise and disappear: huns, goths, vandals, franks, scythians, sarmatians, avars etc. many of them were actually ruling elite of minority, over local majority. f.e. maybe there was 2000 real visigoths ruling over western france, but people who fought for them were locals (gauls), made from 20000 men. so, scale of ruling elite (which factions gain names) were 1:10 or 1:6 or 1:15. after some time, locals would take language and culture of ruling minority or ruling minority would take language of locals (example of rus people (vikings) ruling over slavs in eastern europe). so, we can say that germans and slavs are actually cultural-linguistic groups, rather than ethnicity (and we can surely call them the most influential). other cultural-linguistic group that remained today is roman western, which was took by the locals in western europe (france, spain, italy), but much changed by germanic group.

other thing, i don't know do you speak slavic language, but on slavic language germans are called nemac, nemec, niemec etc. meaning the one who don't speak. there is no doubt that slavs lived near germans, and distinguish themselves as calling germans: those who does not speak.

as for blond slavs, i take that theory a bit old. it was mostly russian propaganda, and it is still widespread over "ordinary people". it came from ahmad ibn fadlan description of rus people, which many took for granted as description slavs (since rus ruled over slavs). actual description of slav people was made by procopius: "they are tall and especially strong, their skin is not very white, and their hair is neither blond nor black, but all have auburn hair"

but still, i already talked about slavs as cultural-linguistic group, so it's no wonder if appearance of slavs vary

[phoenix[illusion]]

Just to add to this discussion of hussars. they are not based on lack fact, but on fact that serbs really were light cavalry in mathias corvinus' army (he organized hussar army). one of the great leaders of serbian light cavalry in hungary was vuk grgurevic, known in songs by name zmaj ognjeni vuk. he was leader of light cavalry in mathias corvinus' black army, and he lead his light cav serbs in srebrenica, sarajevo, smederevo etc. he also lead light serbian cav in battle of breadfield. we can assume it's actually serbian light cav = hussars. also jaksic brothers (dimitar and jovan) were leaders of serbian bands of hussars. this is no coindicance that there were many bands of serbs and serbian leaders who fought light cav style. what is more important, jaksic brothers are described as one who taken polish territories by hiding light cav in the woods and attacking. this is surely tactics of raiders, another piece of puzzle. also vuk grgurevic's light cav is known as raiders too. so hussar = serbian light cav in hungarian service = gusar = raider

"King Matthias invited lords and warriors from Serbia. He grantedthem land and gave them important positions in his army, mostly in the light cavalry, a force consisting primarily of immigrants. Men who joinedhis service and later won recognition included Despot Vuk Grgurevic,the grandson of Djuradj, brothers Jovan and Dmitar Jaksic´,and Milos Belmuzevic´."

[Darios]

How I love to see silly 19th century nationalistic theories regarding linguistics and ethnicity beaten down)

[Wallachian]

How I love to see silly 19th century nationalistic theories regarding linguistics and ethnicity beaten down)

Amen to that! Very informative posts by phoenix

[SerbianInfantry]

Less arguing, more mod working!

[Darios]

Yes, work you lazy dogs!!

[DobroVece]

I just read through this, and I cannot believe that you were arguing with Deretic funboy. Or that they have penetrated our forums.....
But, you know, any kind of activity is good. I guess...