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Thread: Regarding Samurai

  1. #21
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Baal View Post
    What Elianus is trying to conceive is a way to not have katana only armed samurai's on the game, since katanas were sidearms most of the time as I understand. So you would have yumi samurai, yari samurai and teppo samurai and that would be about it, each of them would still be terrifyingly good with the katana for close quarters encounters.

    Of course, for a realistic representation of units on the battlefields the engine should be able to have not only different models of soldiers on a unit, but also horses and infantry on a unit and different kinds of weapons in a unit.

    About horses and infantry soldiers on a single unit that could be alleviated By simply having a calvary unit going around with two infantry units in formation all the time. But the other two well, having samurais and ashigarus on the same unit I don't know if it's possible, I guess that from a visual standpoint it could be possible, but the unit wielding different weapons (some armed with spears, others with maces and others with katanas for example) CA has stated is outright impossible, so right there dies the realistic possibility.
    Well, for gameplay reasons, they don't have to be THAT good in cc but certainly not as bad as they are now.
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  2. #22
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Then the proposal of Yumi and teppo bearing samurai shall be good in melee has my support, however not enough to skew them and turn them into an all around unit you can confidently throw at melee blobs.

    Henceforth, all bushi units bearing the yumi and teppo will have their numbers reduced to level that address the concern stated above.

    Furthermore, may I suggest making it a submod for now, I fear it might alter the time table for another upcoming release of Seki this October. ()

    As for the matter of the katana samurai still existing, yes it is a slight in the sight of the gods however, Ukita "Daijo-daijin" Akaie-sama has expressed hesitance at such measures of removing units and we must abide on this policy for now.

    Date "Dainagon" Masaie, member of the San Bugyo

    Of course, for a realistic representation of units on the battlefields the engine should be able to have not only different models of soldiers on a unit, but also horses and infantry on a unit and different kinds of weapons in a unit.
    Not necessarily. Only MOAR elaborate formations like what is seen in Histwar, a mounted officer accompanied by his 4 or so retainers then finally at the command of dozen or so samurai units only at each samurai 2 ashigaru follow him.

    But weapons are pretty uniform.

    Then you have cav formations with 1 mounted samurai having 2 ashigaru following close behind. I mean ......ok.........so how do we utilize this....poor ashigaru kun, trying to keep up with them horses.

    Then again, some argue (I read on the internet ) horse tactics involved more like WWI airplane duels, circling about, no shock formation of lances bearing down at a specific point.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

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  3. #23
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Rommel View Post
    Then the proposal of Yumi and teppo bearing samurai shall be good in melee has my support, however not enough to skew them and turn them into an all around unit you can confidently throw at melee blobs.

    Henceforth, all bushi units bearing the yumi and teppo will have their numbers reduced to level that address the concern stated above.

    Furthermore, may I suggest making it a submod for now, I fear it might alter the time table for another upcoming release of Seki this October. ()

    As for the matter of the katana samurai still existing, yes it is a slight in the sight of the gods however, Ukita "Daijo-daijin" Akaie-sama has expressed hesitance at such measures of removing units and we must abide on this policy for now. ()

    Date "Dainagon" Masaie, member of the San Bugyo



    Not necessarily. Only MOAR elaborate formations like what is seen in Histwar, a mounted officer accompanied by his 4 or so retainers then finally at the command of dozen or so samurai units only at each samurai 2 ashigaru follow him.

    But weapons are pretty uniform.

    Then you have cav formations with 1 mounted samurai having 2 ashigaru following close behind. I mean ......ok.........so how do we utilize this....poor ashigaru kun, trying to keep up with them horses.

    Then again, some argue (I read on the internet ) horse tactics involved more like WWI airplane duels, circling about, no shock formation of lances bearing down at a specific point.


    I suppose that if you make the units small it is possible to give them pretty good stats
    Do you agree on the yari cavalry issue? Also, what do you think about turning the nodachi into a trully elite and expensive unit with proper armor and even higher charge (though slightly lower defence than other foot samurai)?
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  4. #24
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Rommel View Post
    But weapons are pretty uniform.
    How so? Like in the game?
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    If you think about it if the more prominent bushi are going to be handled in such a way of making them a smaller presence and statistically more potent then their role as officers will be portrayed better as well. This leads me to question in that case shouldn't most samurai "bushi" units be treated more like the ashigaru kashira? Some sort of lead abilities to show that they are indeed higher ranking and the superiors of the ashigaru fielded. Or maybe just apply this to the katana samurai??? This would make their presence in the mod more justified and slightly more fitting no?

    As a side thought the distinction between reading history and making game references has become ever more confusing in light of what most people consider samurai are usually bushi and that many classes of warrior were considered samurai
    Last edited by Gen. Sherman; October 03, 2012 at 12:22 PM.

  6. #26
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    How so? Like in the game?
    Almost.

    Yari Gumi



    Yumi Gumi



    Teppo Gumi has a mix in the unit of yumi.



    Oh look. The Wingend Crane formation.


    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
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  7. #27
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Those formations also apply for 1550?
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
    Visit my utterly wall of doom here.
    Do you wanna play SS 6.4 and take your time while at it? Play with my 12 turns per year here.
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  8. #28
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    I dont see why not, even though its only 5 years since teppo has been introduced, we see at that time, Nobunaga's father placing orders for 500. Then again, the rotating drill was first recorded at 1554. And this shows the unit

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
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  9. #29
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    So it would be valid for the original time frame?
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
    Visit my utterly wall of doom here.
    Do you wanna play SS 6.4 and take your time while at it? Play with my 12 turns per year here.
    Y también quieres jugar Stainless Steel 100% en español? Mira por aca.

  10. #30
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Middle. If you include the teppo gumi.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






  11. #31
    MagicCuboid's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Elianus, sorry I misunderstood which yari samurai we were discussing. I wonder why the yari cavalry has significantly different stats than yari foot samurai at all when on foot, considering the game allows for mounted and dismounted unit stats ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Rommel
    Then the proposal of Yumi and teppo bearing samurai shall be good in melee has my support, however not enough to skew them and turn them into an all around unit you can confidently throw at melee blobs.

    Henceforth, all bushi units bearing the yumi and teppo will have their numbers reduced to level that address the concern stated above.

    Furthermore, may I suggest making it a submod for now, I fear it might alter the time table for another upcoming release of Seki this October.
    Sounds good! Any consensus on yari cavalry? I understand why Akaie wouldn't like to remove katana samurai. I'm sure many if not most players prefer the iconic look of a samurai with a katana to the historicity of its use on the battlefield, and as I mentioned in a previous post I believe the katana did have a tactical role on the battlefield anyway, samurai just would have come armed with another weapon too. Also OOOH October update!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Rommel
    Then again, some argue (I read on the internet ) horse tactics involved more like WWI airplane duels, circling about, no shock formation of lances bearing down at a specific point.
    That makes a lot of sense to me! Have you ever played Mount & Blade? Set your cavalry to follow you and charge through ranks of cavalry to get this effect. The casualties are minimal but it is also less risky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Sherman View Post
    If you think about it if the more prominent bushi are going to be handled in such a way of making them a smaller presence and statistically more potent then their role as officers will be portrayed better as well. This leads me to question in that case shouldn't most samurai "bushi" units be treated more like the ashigaru kashira? Some sort of lead abilities to show that they are indeed higher ranking and the superiors of the ashigaru fielded. Or maybe just apply this to the katana samurai??? This would make their presence in the mod more justified and slightly more fitting no?

    This is a pretty bold idea, but I could see it working out if ashigaru have even lower morale... This would force the player to keep a unit of samurai near units of ashigaru in order to provide field presence and command. That said I think this is already simplified and accomplished well enough by the position of your general. Having to micro your samurai around to keep track of ashigaru might just be overwhelming for the average player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Sherman View Post
    As a side thought the distinction between reading history and making game references has become ever more confusing in light of what most people consider samurai are usually bushi and that many classes of warrior were considered samurai
    Is this in reference to how ashigaru were eventually folded into the lowest rank of samurai status? My (growing but limited) understanding so far is that samurai broadly means "one who serves" and came to be nearly synonymous with the bushi, or "warriors". Bushi were mostly defined by bloodline (Hideyoshi being among the most notable exceptions) and they followed bushido. As the Sengoku period continued and more ashigaru started claiming samurai status, I can see how the two terms could become confusing. Is there anything I'm missing?

    EDIT: I always think it bears mentioning when talking about unit balance that, at the end of the day, what's great about mods is that we are all free to make our little personal edits as we see fit! So other than the pursuit of historical "truth", we need not fret about Akaie and Erwin's design decisions, but rather thank them for providing us such an excellent sandbox to play in!
    Last edited by MagicCuboid; October 03, 2012 at 04:31 PM.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicCuboid View Post
    Is this in reference to how ashigaru were eventually folded into the lowest rank of samurai status? My (growing but limited) understanding so far is that samurai broadly means "one who serves" and came to be nearly synonymous with the bushi, or "warriors". Bushi were mostly defined by bloodline (Hideyoshi being among the most notable exceptions) and they followed bushido. As the Sengoku period continued and more ashigaru started claiming samurai status, I can see how the two terms could become confusing. Is there anything I'm missing?

    EDIT: I always think it bears mentioning when talking about unit balance that, at the end of the day, what's great about mods is that we are all free to make our little personal edits as we see fit! So other than the pursuit of historical "truth", we need not fret about Akaie and Erwin's design decisions, but rather thank them for providing us such an excellent sandbox to play in!
    From what I've been reading and gathering on the subject of bushi and samurai is this. It seems bushi were for the most part the dedicated fighting men of a daimyo or clan leader or land owner who had enough influence. The bushi occupation was martial combat and they were put in positions of subordinate power and control under their leader. They were relatively few compared to the lower ranks of nearly all other warriors.

    Interestingly enough everything I've seen about ashigaru says they are more than peasants like the game would have you believe. I've seen them referred to as ashigaru samurai many times. Most ashigaru were mercenaries, men who wanted to join the fighting ranks but weren't the same caliber as their bushi counter parts, or if necessary levied into service.

    The lowest class of warrior I have seen mentioned are the true peasants and farmers who were pressed into fighting by their lord. I cannot remember the title these men were given but it was not ashigaru, but even they were referred to as a type of"samurai". I've actually seen that ashigaru translates into "light foot" or something of the like.

    Hopefully the sources I've been reading are right, anyone else who is more knowledgeable on the matter feel free to correct me.

    In response to your last part I for one wouldn't fret about the design decisions on Seki. I love this mod. I'm just the kind that if I think I have a good idea to contribute that fits what is being discussed I'll throw it out there. I know everyone who works on this mod likes it to be historical, fun, and well made, so believe me. I have no complaints about that

  13. #33
    hessia78's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    I think we should get rid of Katana samurai and slightly buffing the melee stats of the Yumi cavalry and add Nagatina cavalry as the new melee cavalry with a small bonus verse other cavalry so that things are not rock-paper-scissors but actually depend how you use them. Nagatina cavalry will loses pretty much most of the time if they got charged by Yari or light cavalry but have a decent chance of coming out on top if they were the ones who charged onto the yari/light cavalry that were already tided up or had been flanked

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