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Thread: Regarding Samurai

  1. #1
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Regarding Samurai

    I have to say that this mod keeps getting even more awesome as time passes. I love both the gameplay and the eye candy. However, there are a couple of things that I find odd. First of all, foot samurai. A few months back I suggested that the katana samurai and the archers should be merged into a hybrid unit (that would be the ''generic'' samurai and historically accurate, please correct me if I am wrong). I understand that back then there might have been an issue with variety (no problem IMO) but things have changed. This wonderful mod has added many new units and even though I am by no means an expert on Japanese History I am certain that there are many ''named'' units that can be included so no problems there. If you do that you could perhaps include an elite ''guard'' archer unit (but with great melee stats as well).

    The same thing applies to yari cavalry. I suggest that you make them excellent melee fighters and turn the katana cavalry into an elite (tachi perhaps?) unit with great melee stats and bows but not quite as good ranged capabilities as dedicated horse archers (who should also have at least decent melee stats).

    Last, I have no knowledge of Hankyu Samurai but if they are inteded to be used as an assault unit I think that the should have better melee stats. That is all. I trully love your work and hope that at least some of these make it into the mod

    Edit: How am I supposed to use ashigaru kashira?
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  2. #2
    Akaie's Avatar Sangi Ukon'e no Chūjō
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Ashigaru Kashira are like mini-generals, due to their rally and inspire abilities. They'll also hold their own in melee and against cavalry, but of course, not as effective as yari ashigaru .

    Hankyu was a shorter bow, so I took a stylistic leaning with CAs Daikyu Samurai and made their range shorter to represent that for a bit of tactical variety .

    Admittedly, I'm still rather hesitant about getting rid of units, but adding brand new hybrid units is something I'm happy to explore more (we've touched on it with Yumi-Naginata Ashigaru) .

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  3. #3
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Akaie View Post
    Ashigaru Kashira are like mini-generals, due to their rally and inspire abilities. They'll also hold their own in melee and against cavalry, but of course, not as effective as yari ashigaru .

    Hankyu was a shorter bow, so I took a stylistic leaning with CAs Daikyu Samurai and made their range shorter to represent that for a bit of tactical variety .

    Admittedly, I'm still rather hesitant about getting rid of units, but adding brand new hybrid units is something I'm happy to explore more (we've touched on it with Yumi-Naginata Ashigaru) .
    I never said anything about getting rid of units
    If you make tha katana samurai carry bows (not too many arrows though) and replace the samurai archers with an elite (daikyu?) unit that is
    very good in melee (and has a longer range) as well there would be no reduction in units. The same applies to the cavalry. It is a shift but variety won't really be hurt in any way. Still, the choice is yours (duh).

    Edit: I may be wrong but aren't the samurai that carried teppo supposed to be a crack unit? Shouldn't they have better melee stats?
    Last edited by Elianus; October 02, 2012 at 09:18 AM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Well, the main issue I have with that is that it is my understanding that melee fighting didn't really happen much on horseback. Cavalry would actually dismount prior to fighting. This is backed up (from what I learned) by some tactics guide from the Takeda clan (I'll have to look up the name of it). Any horse archer type troop would also need to be less armored, because the armor would mess with mobility and also mess with their ability to even shoot.

  5. #5
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokgar View Post
    Well, the main issue I have with that is that it is my understanding that melee fighting didn't really happen much on horseback. Cavalry would actually dismount prior to fighting. This is backed up (from what I learned) by some tactics guide from the Takeda clan (I'll have to look up the name of it). Any horse archer type troop would also need to be less armored, because the armor would mess with mobility and also mess with their ability to even shoot.
    That has nothing to do with it They should be good melee fighters especially if you intend to dismount
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    It does have something to do with this. Such as giving cavalry excellent melee stats. Yeah, good dismounted stats would be better, but what I said relates to giving them excellent stats while still on horseback.

  7. #7
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    The way they were used has nothing to do with how capable they were. At the moment we have a katana cavalry unit with great melee stats and a yari cavalry unit that is only good at charging. I see your point. I am just saying that the historically correct and logical thing is for the yari cavalry to be good at melee since there was no such thing as katana cavalry. It was the same guys using a yari and/or their katana once they got close.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    What I mean was because it was ineffective to be in melee on horseback, as in it was harder to fight on horseback, units dismounted. Not they dismounted just because. I should have made that more clear.

  9. #9
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    What Elianus means is something along the lines of TROM3, to make samurai carry bows and katanas, generals carrying bows too and such. That would be an awesome option for the game. In the original Shogun you had precisely that, well not precisely but we had yari samuray and yumi samuray that where also katana samurai.

    But the most awesome thing that sadly is not doable is to make units mixed units of samurai and ashigaru carrying random weapons for early game and then, as we progress have the option to acquire more "conventional" (TW wise) units like yumi ashigaru and such...
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    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    If you make tha katana samurai carry bows (not too many arrows though) and replace the samurai archers with an elite (daikyu?) unit that is
    No. I disagree for katana samurai units still fielding bows.

    While not obsolete, their uses where more like in complement with teppo units.

    Teppo units fire, then reload, while at that time, the yumi units provide covering fire since they have a better reload rate, though it was never the aim to kill, just keep them at bay at exploiting the teppo at such a vulnerable state.

    Hence if yumi is still to be utilized, it better be in specialized units that excel in sniping or just for anachronism, ie samurai but in low numbers and more importantly, the ashigaru.

    Now if katana samurai gets yumi, it will be somewhat looking like early or pre Sengoku Jidai where yumi is still held in high esteem. May I suggest instead to put your gunz on and have the katana samurai carry teppo instead.

    Hell when Shimazu Yoshihiro brought a yumi at Sekigahara, he was viewed as quaint was the term if I still recall.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
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  11. #11
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Rommel View Post
    No. I disagree for katana samurai units still fielding bows.

    While not obsolete, their uses where more like in complement with teppo units.

    Teppo units fire, then reload, while at that time, the yumi units provide covering fire since they have a better reload rate, though it was never the aim to kill, just keep them at bay at exploiting the teppo at such a vulnerable state.

    Hence if yumi is still to be utilized, it better be in specialized units that excel in sniping or just for anachronism, ie samurai but in low numbers and more importantly, the ashigaru.

    Now if katana samurai gets yumi, it will be somewhat looking like early or pre Sengoku Jidai where yumi is still held in high esteem. May I suggest instead to put your gunz on and have the katana samurai carry teppo instead.

    Hell when Shimazu Yoshihiro brought a yumi at Sekigahara, he was viewed as quaint was the term if I still recall.
    I am basically saying that instead of having samurai armed only with their sidearm (sword) you could just make the archer samurai good melee fighters and perhaps add a daikyu samurai unit with superior ranged capabilities and range (but excellent melee skills as well). As there is already a teppo samurai unit in the game I think that they deserve excellent melee stats (but not so good as to be able to break yari samurai). Indeed, as Lord Baal wrote I mean something along the lines of TROM3. A more realistic imo approach where a samurai is a capable melee fighter even if his main weapon is a teppo or a bow and NOT a rock-paper-scissors approach
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  12. #12
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Sorry still I cant support you on this. Yumi at this late stage of the period is getting quaint. To see it be still issued to samurai would just make it anachronistic, like Bow Cavalry, albeit it still exists in the mod but not widely used like katana samurai.

    Now when we have katana samurai getting yumi, we'll see the army will have more yumi than teppo ratio, when historically it should be opposite.

    Yumi is quaint in the late Momoyama Jidai. It should exist in quaint units only, like Bow cav or Daikyu (limited since its a DLC unit) or Hankyu.



    This is a Yumi group, notice how small in proportion the samurai are, this is still Sengoku Jidai so not yet Late Momoyama Jidai, its purpose is to screen ahead of the main army like skirmishers and snipers.

    Katana samurai, however unhistorical, still fulfills a niche in the battle, that of a dedicated melee unit. To have a melee unit that can screen like a skirmisher will just mess things up, not to mention again, anachronistic. This is not Gempei or Onin or Sengoku, its Momoyama Jidai.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
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  13. #13
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Rommel View Post
    Sorry still I cant support you on this. Yumi at this late stage of the period is getting quaint. To see it be still issued to samurai would just make it anachronistic, like Bow Cavalry, albeit it still exists in the mod but not widely used like katana samurai.

    Now when we have katana samurai getting yumi, we'll see the army will have more yumi than teppo ratio, when historically it should be opposite.

    Yumi is quaint in the late Momoyama Jidai. It should exist in quaint units only, like Bow cav or Daikyu (limited since its a DLC unit) or Hankyu.



    This is a Yumi group, notice how small in proportion the samurai are, this is still Sengoku Jidai so not yet Late Momoyama Jidai, its purpose is to screen ahead of the main army like skirmishers and snipers.

    Katana samurai, however unhistorical, still fulfills a niche in the battle, that of a dedicated melee unit. To have a melee unit that can screen like a skirmisher will just mess things up, not to mention again, anachronistic. This is not Gempei or Onin or Sengoku, its Momoyama Jidai.
    I am aware of how little the bow was used in this era so I understand your reluctance to add another archer unit but what about the melee stats? I still think that samurai archers and teppo samurai should be capable in melee and that yari cavalry and katana cavalry should be merged (and perhaps add an elite tachi cavalry unit with or without bows) or at least give the yari cav decent melee stats. I love the mod as it is. I am just making some suggestions.
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  14. #14
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    but what about the melee stats?
    Oh. This should be interesting. Now we are getting somewhere.

    Should they be powerful to inflict significant damage to an ashigaru unit but not enough to totally replace melee dedicated units?

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
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  15. #15
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Rommel View Post
    Oh. This should be interesting. Now we are getting somewhere.

    Should they be powerful to inflict significant damage to an ashigaru unit but not enough to totally replace melee dedicated units?
    Well, these guys are supposed to be great all-round warriors but for the sake of gameplay I suppose that you can't make them that strong. Here is what I think. A unit of teppo/yumi samurai should be strong enough to beat a yari ashigaru unit (NOT in spearwall) but with some casualties (not more than 2/5 of the unit though).
    Against a spearwall they should lose but manage to inflict many (30%?) casualties on the ashigaru. The key here is that they will be able to handle themselves but being the valuable RANGED units that they are, the player will still try to shield them. Should they get caught however, they won't be butchered like cattle.
    About the cavalry, I suggest a slight increase in the melee stats of the horse archers and a significant one for the yari cav. If you are not willing to turn the katana cav into some elite tachi unit and give its melee capabilities to the yari cav then you can at least improve their stats so that they may have a fighting chance (right now they are only good for charging and even if you pull them back they take lots of casualties). I mean, I really like what you have done with they guard units. They carry yari but they are still awesome in melee combat. I think this should apply to the yari cav as well (not that they should be nearly as good as the guards though).
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    I've had my teppo samurai hold their own against a yari ashigaru for a decent amount while my own ashigaru squad was able to flank. I think maybe a little more defense would be nice, but other than that, they work alright assuming you have support nearby to flank.

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    MagicCuboid's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    This is an interesting discussion, I think. I totally get Erwin's point about the Yumi being antiquated by this time period, and I think he's right. I know Samurai were interested in teppo... My first question is, Date clan aside (I know it's hard ), did Samurai personally adopt teppo in great numbers, or were they more likely to hand them out to ashigaru?

    Since this is an infantry discussion we can disregard cavalry for a moment. Elianus is coming up with ideas to make the yari samurai better equipped to fight in melee. I think this makes sense historically, after all the yari was more often than not the samurai's preferred main weapon, correct? But then, the yari is already an effective melee weapon when the unit is in spear wall, and I believe it was Miyamoto Musashi who wrote that samurai learned to make tight formations with spears. Two questions seem to emerge: did samurai ever fight with their yari when not in tight formation? and did samurai ever go to battle in great numbers with just their swords?

    There's a thread on the Rome boards with a discussion on swords vs. spears. I'll quote one comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Deceneus
    Hey guys, thought I would throw in a couple of comments, well three points.

    First, George Silver (ca. 1560s–1620s) in his manifest “Brief Instructions on my Paradoxes of Defence” always gives the dueling advantage to the longer weapon. He does put the caveat that it is for duels.

    http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/brief.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8RWLxlzTiM


    The reason is the advantage of the longer weapon can only be maintained in space. The spearman needs to be able to move to the left, move to the right, or retreat. He has to have that ability to maintain the range advantage. On a battlefield when those movements are restricted the longer weapon loses that advantage. And you can only regain that advantage by having a lot of buddies next to you limiting where your opponent can approach.
    I read the article - it is mostly about dueling but it's a great read. We basically come back around to the idea that swords are great for flanking spears but terrible for running at them head on. So, since we can't tell yari samurai to use their swords instead of their yari, the katana samurai do indeed serve a tactical role without necessarily having to arm them with bows or guns.

    As for balancing, it seems the yari should be strong enough to hold off a sword from the front, but should lose when being flanked. This can be approached from a few angles... Give yari samurai more morale, maybe give them a higher defense? (If this was Medieval 2 we could simply give them a shield value which would add to their frontal defense value.) Or maybe increase the yari melee altogether, but also raise the katana samurai's charge value when not mounted?
    Last edited by MagicCuboid; October 02, 2012 at 10:06 PM.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    One of the quotes for loading screens is something about a retainer not being lax in his duty. One of his things he must do after he eats is practice with bow and gun :p.

  19. #19
    Elianus's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicCuboid View Post
    This is an interesting discussion, I think. I totally get Erwin's point about the Yumi being antiquated by this time period, and I think he's right. I know Samurai were interested in teppo... My first question is, Date clan aside (I know it's hard ), did Samurai personally adopt teppo in great numbers, or were they more likely to hand them out to ashigaru?

    Since this is an infantry discussion we can disregard cavalry for a moment. Elianus is coming up with ideas to make the yari samurai better equipped to fight in melee. I think this makes sense historically, after all the yari was more often than not the samurai's preferred main weapon, correct? But then, the yari is already an effective melee weapon when the unit is in spear wall, and I believe it was Miyamoto Musashi who wrote that samurai learned to make tight formations with spears. Two questions seem to emerge: did samurai ever fight with their yari when not in tight formation? and did samurai ever go to battle in great numbers with just their swords?

    There's a thread on the Rome boards with a discussion on swords vs. spears. I'll quote one comment:



    I read the article - it is mostly about dueling but it's a great read. We basically come back around to the idea that swords are great for flanking spears but terrible for running at them head on. So, since we can't tell yari samurai to use their swords instead of their yari, the katana samurai do indeed serve a tactical role without necessarily having to arm them with bows or guns.

    As for balancing, it seems the yari should be strong enough to hold off a sword from the front, but should lose when being flanked. This can be approached from a few angles... Give yari samurai more morale, maybe give them a higher defense? (If this was Medieval 2 we could simply give them a shield value which would add to their frontal defense value.) Or maybe increase the yari melee altogether, but also raise the katana samurai's charge value when not mounted?
    I am only talking about the yari cavalry. They are supposed to be the basic samurai cav unit and carry swords as well so I think they should have good melee stats. Yari foot samurai are at the moment better than katana samurai so no complaints there. The way their stats are now however, katana samurai are not that useful. With a (deserved, I think) increase in armor, the nodachi lads can fulfil their role and then some.
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  20. #20
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Regarding Samurai

    What Elianus is trying to conceive is a way to not have katana only armed samurai's on the game, since katanas were sidearms most of the time as I understand. So you would have yumi samurai, yari samurai and teppo samurai and that would be about it, each of them would still be terrifyingly good with the katana for close quarters encounters.

    Of course, for a realistic representation of units on the battlefields the engine should be able to have not only different models of soldiers on a unit, but also horses and infantry on a unit and different kinds of weapons in a unit.

    About horses and infantry soldiers on a single unit that could be alleviated By simply having a calvary unit going around with two infantry units in formation all the time. But the other two well, having samurais and ashigarus on the same unit I don't know if it's possible, I guess that from a visual standpoint it could be possible, but the unit wielding different weapons (some armed with spears, others with maces and others with katanas for example) CA has stated is outright impossible, so right there dies the realistic possibility.
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