Is direct democracy applicable in the modern era?

[Hobbes]

I am talking about large states, not small city-states or cantons. The issue of gatherings being too big remains, however modern technology offers many althernatives, such as on-line voting. Furthermore there could be a decentralized system where each neighbourhood takes decisions in popular assemblies and then a final decision is made by sum of all the votes throughout a country or city if we are dealing with local issues (these are in no way formal suggestions, just random thoughts and there could be other ways that I can't think of or they might as well be completely silly ideas). There is of course the arguement about the uneducated public, or the great advances in technology that require extensive counsel by technocrats, however this can be said for all forms of democracy. My question is, would direct democracy (if possible to apply) be a better alternative to its representative counterpart, and if so on what scale?

[Mr.Mad]

I've thought about this subject a lot. I like to think that, with the exponential expansion of communication technology we have seen and continue to experience, direct democracy has the possibility of becoming relevant within the next few decades. I cannot say if it will, of course. And even if it does become seen as an acceptable form of government, how "big" it will become. I have high hopes (probably very foolish and naive ones) that direct democracy will slowly supplant our republic here in the US, at least on the local (and even better, state) level. There's a lot of discussion about shrinking government: why not just cut out some of the middlemen then?

[TheDarkKnight]

We already have a form of direct democracy...Whenever we vote on propositions.

[Hobbes]

We already have a form of direct democracy...Whenever we vote on propositions.

Are you referring to referenda? Beacause that's the only form of direct democracy I have heard of in my country.

Was direct democracy ever applicable? If you want to see a large example of direct democracy at work just take a look at the wonders of California.

All this bloodshed and Voltaire was right all along. I bet that smug bastard is giggling right now.

What has happened in Cali? Have they implemented direct democracy somewhere? In what way?

[chilon]

What has happened in Cali? Have they implemented direct democracy somewhere? In what way?

California has had a form of direct democracy for over 100 years since the progressive era and Hiram Johnson. Its called the Proposition/Initiative/Referendum system. Its probably the closest system to a direct democracy of anywhere I know.

The thing is the system shows how direct democracy doesn't work all that well. First it can get corrupted by special interests every bit as much as forms of republic. Second, over the last 40-50 years the California public has done a great job of voting themselves more services and paying less taxes.

The Prop/Init/Ref direct democracy system has also ended up passing a lot of bad structural changes that have been very bad for the state (Prop. 13, Prop. 98 are the two biggest but there are a lot more on a smaller scale).

When I was younger I thought direct democracy was a great idea but after study its affects on California I now believe direct democracy is a horrible idea. It just doesn't work with a state with 50 million people when everyone wants to get more out of it and pay less for it.

[Condottiere 40K]

Yes, but it requires an informed electorate and a strong political tradition.

[Slaytaninc]

I'm actually growing a bit tired of democracy in general. (Purge me for Heresy)

Anyways, we hire people to represent us because government is a full time job. A political officeholder has a staff that helps him/her make decisions. Government isn't a "do it at your own leisure" task.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I'm actually growing a bit tired of democracy in general. (Purge me for Heresy)

That's because we're all spoiled and complacent like de Tocqueville warned. When the collapse hits and the world gets to try the long-awaited Leviathan experiment, generations of tomorrow will long for liberty and curse their ancestors for throwing it away. Ask the average person in a Communist or otherwise authoritarian country if they would rather live there or in the democratic West, and you know what the answer will be.

[Blau&Gruen]

Is direct democracy applicable in the modern era?

It is perfectly applicable and I am very positive about going to the ballots over e-voting.

[Slaytaninc]

That's because we're all spoiled and complacent like de Tocqueville warned. When the collapse hits and the world gets to try the long-awaited Leviathan experiment, generations of tomorrow will long for liberty and curse their ancestors for throwing it away. Ask the average person in a Communist or otherwise authoritarian country if they would rather live there or in the democratic West, and you know what the answer will be.

I know that the Leviathan is from Hobbes, but what exactly is the Leviathan experiment? World-wide anarchy?

[Lord Thesaurian]

I know that the Leviathan is from Hobbes, but what exactly is the Leviathan experiment? World-wide anarchy?

Have you read Hobbes? The whole reason he wrote the Leviathan was to present a societal model that would forever prevent the "Warre of Everyone Against Everyone" ie civil war and anarchy. Aside from the many practical and ethical problems in the book, Hobbes only applies his theory to nations. His goal is to eradicate war, yet he does not elaborate on how to bring nations as an international whole out of the state of nature; of war. Hence I referenced my belief that, for the Hobbesian model to have any chance of success, the "Soveraign" must by a global authority, not just national. In the previous post, I referred to the coming collapse of "democracy" in the West and the ensuing chaos and ultimately world government as the fulfillment of the Hobbesian model and the first real Leviathan.

Hobbes, you wrote a book?

No, Thomas Hobbes

Legio, are you saying current capitalism sucks?

Yes, the current trends of state capitalism "suck," are unsustainable and responsible for many of the societal woes the world faces today. I am a laissez-faire capitalist.

[Border Patrol]

Was direct democracy ever applicable? If you want to see a large example of direct democracy at work just take a look at the wonders of California.

All this bloodshed and Voltaire was right all along. I bet that smug bastard is giggling right now.

[mishkin]

I think yes it is possible/applicable making first a informed and educated electorate.
(And vocational politicians, not professionals).

[The Kybrothilian]

With all the modern technology at our hands, it should very well be possible. All that is needed now is improvements in the education of social studies.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Let's determine which gubernamental mechanisms would be ruled by Direct Democracy?

The Executive? The Legislative? The Bureaucracy?

The Local Level? The Provincial Level? The National Level?

Niklas Luhmann's argument against ''Habermas's defence of Enlightment'' included the fact that modern governments(Political Systems) are more prone to ''Power deficits'' than ''Power overloads'' and as a result a ''change'' in the democratic, autocratic o whatever elective process takes place to choose the Goal-Attainers of a Society is not the real problem:

The real problem is lack of planning, lack of multi-variable calculus, lack of clarity in judgement o and a consecuential tendency toward ''irrational action'' which makes the masses, ''The Public'', much more ''inflammable'' and ''unpatient'' than what it migh have been... 50 years ago?

[I WUB PUGS]

There's really nothing wrong with our direct democracy in California, it's no better or worse than having a representative democracy run by uninformed or extremely biased elected officials. I guess this example only works if you believe that our government as a whole sucks dick.

Somehow people look at California as the nightmare example. Really if you took out Prop 13 maybe things would be better, but just because we refuse to raise taxes or cut certain things doesn't excuse our government from being piss poor at their job, we have a huge problem with party politics here. Even our ruling party can't work together most of the time and the Governor is routinely at odds with the assembly and the assembly is majority Democrat and the Governor is a Democrat as well.

We aren't the only state that does direct democracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_...#United_States

Also a number of important initiatives are on the ballot this year. I find it refreshing as a former Floridian to live in a place where I can be approached and engaged about a proposition outside of the supermarket, sign the petition and then vote on it later when/if it makes it on the ballot. Note: Florida does have some Direct Democracy, but I don't recall ever being approached about an initiative, maybe in college but never in my hometown. Seems underused there.

These are our ballot measures this November:
http://www.ballotpedia.org/wiki/inde...t_propositions

[I WUB PUGS]

We'll see if we raise taxes on ourselves this November or not. I'll agree with you if we don't considering this year, it's pretty much the only thing we can do to avert catastrophe.

[Hobbes]

Yeah, but how practical would that be exactly? Considering that people would have to vote more often than they do in representative systems.

[Blau&Gruen]

You inform yourself about the questions and the proposals that stand at choice. You have a look at the arguments for and against a proposal and what political parties recommend. Then you fill the form before the date of the e-vote. E-voting is practical no question.

That's it.

[eisenkopf]

Yeah, but how practical would that be exactly? Considering that people would have to vote more often than they do in representative systems.

It's all very practical/feasible, and it has been so for decades.

I am very suprised again and again that in almost every discussion on direct democracy, no one examines the Swiss example more closely.

Sure, it's only semi-direct, having elections for representatives, an upper and a lower house, and so on.

However, all important decisions on all administrative levels have to be decided upon by referenda, i.e. public vote. Plus, the demos can always launch inititiatives for referenda on all administrative levels. If successful, the referenda have to be held, and the proposition has to be implemented if the referendum is successful.

There are a number of issues with the system, and I don't like it for a number of reasons.

But it is definitely practical and has been so for a long time. And it would scale well with larger countries as well. Please have a look at Switzerland before discussing anything on direct democracy.