Spartans were no nazis, please rectify

[The_Judge]

Visiting the Europa Barbarorum website, my eye fell on the Koinon Hellenon faction description (see: Units -> Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites)).
There is written and I quote: "Historically, Sparta was the first experiment in what we might recognize today as militarized National Socialism", end quotation.
First of all, it is very dangerous to compare different civilizations, especially when they are from a totally different period in history (circa 2500 years).
We know little about the Spartans and what we know comes from their enemies. We know very much about Nazi-Germany and what we know also comes from the Germans and even from important nazis.
Sparta was a militarized nation (like Prussia, but unlike Prussia even women were trained as soldiers) with some kind of caste system and a mixture of monarchy (the two hereditary kings), oligarchy (the council of elders), indirect democracy (the ephors) and direct democracy (the damos).
Nazi-Germany did not know any form of democracy, free speech, human rights, etc. and caused the death of millions of soldiers and millions of civilians.
The simple use of the verb "might" is too little as a nuance.

[Stath's]

No one said they were like the Nazis because of their militarism and nationalism. After all, Nazis had so many other things that made them notorious and Spartans obviously did not have them. So there is no issue, imo.

[The Kybrothilian]

The Spartans had all their citizens ready themselves in warfare, and as typical for ancient Greeks, they viewed their culutre superior to others, and also saw themselves as the greatest warriors on earth. What else could militaristic national socialism mean?

[JaM]

and Rome was a Democracy, which wiped out several nations to oblivion... you just cant compare things of Ancient times to our Era.. things were different back then.. every thing in the past shaped somehow future...

[Boriak]

Plus there was also that inferior helot race to think about...

[Entropy Judge]

and Rome was a Democracy,

Rome was a Republic.

[JaM]

Rome was a Republic.

true. but it makes no difference to what i wrote..

[Samariten]

Sparta subdued other people and used them as slaves (i dont say they were the only one but let us focus on Sparta). They disregarded new born children if they were seen to be weak or misshapen. Also read about helots as mentioned. Also National Socialism is an ism not an civilization. Hugs and kisses

[Durnaug]

Sparta subdued other people and used them as slaves (i dont say they were the only one but let us focus on Sparta). They disregarded new born children if they were seen to be weak or misshapen. Also read about helots as mentioned. Also National Socialism is an ism not an civilization. Hugs and kisses

Other Greek cities had just has many slaves and disposed of new borns in a similar fashion. The key distinction is that the Spartan state took control of the Spartan male children and reared them as soldiers to fight and die for the state. Add to the mix the Spartan sense of superiority and you can see some sort of analogy with National Socialism. However, I think it is ultimately a poor analogy and ultimately a useless one, unless you want the paint the Spartans as inherently evil or something like that.

[Casual Tactician]

Visiting the Europa Barbarorum website, my eye fell on the Koinon Hellenon faction description (see: Units -> Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites)).
There is written and I quote: "Historically, Sparta was the first experiment in what we might recognize today as militarized National Socialism", end quotation.
First of all, it is very dangerous to compare different civilizations, especially when they are from a totally different period in history (circa 2500 years).

1.) I can't really see how "militarized National Socialism" - which seems to simply imply = Militarism + Nationalism + Socialsim (referring to an ancient society/state) - and Nazism have much to do with each other.

2.) The NSDAP, aka the "Nazis", was the "National-Socialist German Labour Party" (the "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei"); and the terms "socialist" and "labour" in the parties title are known to be mainly a PR-stun/lie by the NSDAP, to incorporate the socialist/labour groups/trends (as eg. the KPD or SPD) in Germany - which the Nazis actually fought against in bloody street battles prior to their seizure of power, and whose leaders were then later on murdered in concentration camps.
And later on the Nazis also "dismantled" any even remotely left-wing people in their own ranks -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

The Night of the Long Knives (German: Nacht der langen Messer), sometimes called Operation Hummingbird or, in Germany, the Röhm-Putsch, was a purge that took place in Nazi Germany between June 30 and July 2, 1934, when the Nazi regime carried out a series of political murders. Leading figures of the left-wing Strasserist faction of the Nazi Party, along with its figurehead, Gregor Strasser, were murdered, as were prominent conservative anti-Nazis (such as former Chancellor Kurt von Schleicher and Gustav Ritter von Kahr, who had suppressed Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch in 1923). Many of those killed were leaders of the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary brownshirts.

3.) The NSDAP were a very, very radical type of fascism (= ideologically insane and highly racist) and not socialists.

4.) If we look at the entire statement:

http://www.europabarbarorum.com/fact...non_units.html: Historically, Sparta was the first experiment in what we might recognize today as militarized National Socialism. Their boys were taken from the parents as soon as they were able to walk and trained to be soldiers. They were often beaten and generally mistreated by their teachers until they reached an age where they could fight back. They engaged in heavy physical activity from an early age, exercising and practicing to fight almost as a religion. They were encouraged to steal and be crafty to survive, but were often beaten if caught. There are even some accounts of required sodomy between the young boys and sometimes even wife sharing, with the belief that a military unit should even love together! In this harsh environment, tough and fanatical soldiers are produced. When the Spartans were finally defeated and subjugated by the Romans, one of the more conservative Roman nobles is said to have wept and lamented the passing of a warrior culture without equal. The Spartan mantra is: march back in triumph with your shield, or be brought back lying upon it.

Then, apart from "militarized National Socialism" being a somewhat ambiguous (and perhaps inaccurate or misleading) term (to folks that see National Socialism to be the same as the facist Nazi-ideology - why?!?), there isn't any relation to Nazism.

We know little about the Spartans and what we know comes from their enemies. We know very much about Nazi-Germany and what we know also comes from the Germans and even from important nazis.
Sparta was a militarized nation (like Prussia, but unlike Prussia even women were trained as soldiers) with some kind of caste system and a mixture of monarchy (the two hereditary kings), oligarchy (the council of elders), indirect democracy (the ephors) and direct democracy (the damos).
Nazi-Germany did not know any form of democracy, free speech, human rights, etc. and caused the death of millions of soldiers and millions of civilians.
The simple use of the verb "might" is too little as a nuance.

So why do you compare the Nazis and Sparta? I don't quite get the intent of this thread.

Is it an overly political correctness? I'd say the term "militarized National Socialism", referring to Sparta, is a little far-streched and, imo not accurate, but connecting it to Nazism never crossed my mind. Militarism, Nationalism and Socialism combinded is simply not Nazism.

@The_Judge I believe continuing this thread does not help your opinion (which is the same as mine and 99,99% of all logical people).

There is no real comparison, so no real issue. By discussing it, suddenly it becomes an issue and, as always, there are some people who may defend the illogical point, mainly for the fun, i believe.

No actual issue, there is no comparison between those two, i can't see in this text of the faction description that it is implied there are strong similarities between those two.

Remember the crimes of the Nazis and the conversation is over.

Seconded. (Although I did further discuss here )

[Jive]

To say that Sparta was nationally socialistic is not to say they were Nazis. Spain and Italy went down that route around the middle of the last century, yet they weren't explicitly racist or xenophobic. Rather, they played a balancing act among traditional social values, a mixed economy (both private and public ownership of the means of production), and the primacy of centralized government over individual liberty.

Sparta was hardly the only slave society in human history, but what sets it out as unique was its extreme regimentation and subjugation of the individual--male and female--to the public good, as defined by those in power. In that sense, it largely reflected the ideals of Plato's Republic, subordinating everything to the state.

[Samariten]

I thought Rome was a republic and later an empire?

[JaM]

yes, but they had some sort of democratic government - they could vote for Tribunes of People, that were responsible for day by day laws etc... They also had veto power, to stop any ideas presented by other Tribunes... Gracchus brothers were both Tribunes of People, they passed the law that wanted to redistribute land to poor, but got killed by their opposition... To this days they are seen as those who founded Populism btw.. it was relativly good government system that worked for 500 years..

[Jive]

yes, but they had some sort of democratic government - they could vote for Tribunes of People, that were responsible for day by day laws etc... They also had veto power, to stop any ideas presented by other Tribunes... Gracchus brothers were both Tribunes of People, they passed the law that wanted to redistribute land to poor, but got killed by their opposition... To this days they are seen as those who founded Populism btw.. it was relativly good government system that worked for 500 years..

An interesting discussion. Rome was "democratic" in a limited sense--no slaves, Italian allies, or gals needed to apply. So how come it didn't evolve into an ancient version of a postmodern liberal democracy before it got short-circuited by Sulla, Marius, and Julius Caesar? Probably nobody knows exactly, but it might have something to do with the eternal corruptibility of human nature. Perhaps we should count ourselves lucky to be living in these times, however much we might quibble, grumble, or vociferate about the unfairness of it all.

[boofhead]

National socialism =/= Nazis, although the latter were one form of it, a highly racist and brutal form.

[JaM]

Money corrupts... conquering Cartage had its effect.. lots of money, hundreds of thousand of slaves changed Rome dramatically.. Simple people lost their lands as they were not able to compete with huge Latifundias owned by few rich aristocrats with thousand of slaves.. Once your middle class is gone (or bankrupt), its too late (what an example to today's situation, is it)... Sulla,Marius, Pompey and Caesar.. they were just results of the Era...

[Basil II the B.S]

Nazi-Germany did not know any form of democracy, free speech, human rights, etc. and caused the death of millions of soldiers and millions of civilians.

Because ancient Spartans did? Are you serious? If anything Sparta was against, that's democracy. Human rights? Nobody gave a crap about that in ancient times, same goes for free speech. The entire society was racially divided between the ''equals'' the Spartans, and everyone else. The economy relied on slavery and human abuse. The Krypteia, the Spartan secret police, was hardly any better than the Nazi Gestapo, they just had less torture tools. Sounds to me you've been reading too little... And I'm definitely not even the greatest expert on the topic. Even if the mod developers probably had no intention of comparing Sparta with Nazi Germany, under many aspects, ancient Sparta stands the comparison. Of course, those were other times, still...No reason to make a fuss.

[JaM]

Biggest issue is People romanticize things... Rome is always bad, Gauls,Cartage are good... Spartans too... thing is, those nations cannot be judged based on today's morale.. They kinda worked more "naturally" - only strong prevailed... rules of nature are undeniable (we all have it in genes)... so its impossible to bash one side because of morale rules we have now.. its like bashing a lion attacking gazelle.. but in this case, those nations are thousand of years gone..

[Peucestas]

I am having trouble following the Rome connection because it seems totally irrelevant. However the Spartans did have a socialist government as did the Nazi's. The Nazi's historians and archaeologists recognized this and took quite a fancy to Spartan history. There are many parallels that can be drawn between the Spartans and the Nazi's, but this does not mean that the Spartans can be vilified like the Nazi's can. It comes down to critical thinking exercises, we are taught to look for similarities. For example if you just discover x and y, upon further reflection you can piece together that x & y are similar to a & b but retain their own identity and are unique. From history things can be learned and comparisons should be made. Life maybe different now but societies function in the same way, the social, governmental and Geo-political structures change but not the condition that is Man.

Sorry for the messed up second post, screen froze.

[Peucestas]

I am having trouble following the Rome connection because it seems totally irrelevant. However the Spartans did have a socialist government as did the Nazi's. The Nazi's historians and archaeologists recognized this and took quite a fancy to Spartan history. There are many parallels that can be drawn between the Spartans and the Nazi's, but [COLOR="rgb(255, 140, 0)"]this does not mean that the Spartans can be vilified like the Nazi's[/COLOR] can. It comes down to critical thinking exercises, we are taught to look for similarities. For example if you just discover x and y, upon further reflection you can piece together that x & y are similar to a & b [COLOR="rgb(255, 140, 0)"]but retain their own identity and are unique[/COLOR]. From history things can be learned and comparisons should be made. Life maybe different now but societies function in essentially the same way, the social, governmental and Geo-political structures change but not the condition that is Man.