Byzantines.

[Alexanderos]

I have noticed that in the early game they are very very strong , as they sould be.

But in 1400's when they were already dying they are still the dominant faction of the game Why isn't anyone able to beat them ? The turks were driven out fastly by them , and venice is also very weak.
I am Spain , and my war with the Moors keeps me away from them for now

Something should be done about , their lifetime is just too big !

[AnthoniusII]

The answer is quite simple:
After 1400 their armies are weaker than they are in 1100.
But the imagine..If Byzantines would be able to hold their lands and never lost their capital in 1204 wouldn't they be the dominant state in europe?
Holding balkans,anatolia and eastern mediteranean Byzantines would control all trade routs with all the advandages this would give them.
The decline of the empire did not come from external threats. Civil wars, uprisings and games of thrones cuased the decline.
The glorius armies of 1025 did not defeat by any enemy. They were discharged by the emperors them selves to feel secure in their thrones!

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

If you play from the early campaign, then it is easily explainable - they own a large amount of territories, and they have highly spammable and cheap militia grade units, while the proffesionals are really good and expensive, but their cost is easy to be maintained because of the money bonuses AI gets.

[Duke of Metz]

The Byzantines have the biggest variation in power between Early and Late periods. Early period they dominate, but are very weak in the late period. I think the Early Era campaign needs a Fourth Crusade event to check the Byzantines. It was the penultimate challenge faced by the Empire and one from which they never fully required. I think that would be an awesome challenge to playing Early Era Byzantines - how would you respond to the Fourth Crusade?

It would probably have to be done with several rebel stacks spawning around Constantinople, or maybe even a revolt since you can't crusade against Orthodox factions. Currently, the Byzantines only have the Bulgarian revolt to check them, but that is easy to put down.

[Gandalfus]

Well, seeing as events differ the fourth crusade might actually reach its destination or not be called At all.

[Judeman266]

The Fourth Crusade wasn't the problem. Many people forget or don't know about the Massacre of the Latins in 1182 where over 60,000 Genoans and Pisans were massacred by the Greek population and survivors sold as slaves to the Turks.

The Crusaders couldn't pay the Venetians for the entire trip to Syria so they blackmailed them into attacking Zara, a city that was formerly under Venetian control that had rebelled under influence of King Emeric of Hungary and Croatia, to pay their debt. The sack of a city that rebels from its feudal lord to become independent, while inexcusable, was common during the Middle Ages in Europe. The Pope then excommunicated them after they attacked Zara but he was reluctant because he knew that the Venetians had essentially blackmailed the Crusaders because they were already bankrupt from selling their possessions to go on crusade.

Before they left for Syria, Alexios IV offered to pay back the Venetians, enrich the Crusaders, support the Crusade with 10,000 Byzantine professional troops, use the Byzantine navy to transport the Crusader Army to Egypt and the placement of the Eastern Orthodox Church under the authority of Pope if they would sail to Byzantium and topple the reigning emperor, Alexios III, his uncle. So you have a Byzantine prince bidding for the Crusaders to come and depose the Emperor, you have a dislike for the Byzantines, and you have the promise of riches to soldiers who have given up all their money.

Doge (President/Leader of the Oligarchy) Dandolo of Venice was involved in Byzantine politics earlier as a diplomat for Venice and knew for sure that none of the promises by Alexios IV could be kept or fulfilled. However, in 1171Manuel I Komnenos had ordered the mass arrest of all Venetians throughout the Empire and the confiscation of their property. The Venetians had declared war, but were not able to recoup anything as compensation, so they still had a desire for revenge in 1203.

Doge Dandolo bribed anyone who disagreed to go in order to have them favor the Constantinople expedition. There was a small group that left and sailed to Syria, but the majority under the power of their leaders stayed. Doge Dandolo also made the nobles convince the rank and file that Alexios IV would be welcomed as a liberator.

First the Crusaders arrived on land and faced the Byzantine army in formation. The Crusaders' knights charged straight out of the horse transports right from the ships,and the Byzantine army fled back to the city. Then the army sieged the city and its surrounding suburbs in 1203 and during some of their retreats from assaults set fires to cover themselves. These fires burned a portion of the city. Alexios III sallied out with more than twice as many men as the Crusaders had besieging Constantinople but then he got scared and returned inside the walls. Then Alexios III fled Constantinople in secret, and Isaac II (he was blinded to make him ineligible to rule) was restored to the throne with his son, Alexios IV as co-emperor. After another fire and more tensions Alexios IV was deposed and strangled in early 1204 and Isaac II died probably of natural causes. Alexios Doukas became the new emperor, and refused to honor the contract.


Now the Army was very upset, first they had received nothing they were promised and now the man who could make it happen was dead. Also the army thought that the events were the result of God punishing them. However the clergy suppressed a letter from the Pope directing them not to attack and told the rank and file that God was testing them, also representing the Greeks as murderers and traitors. Convinced they were undertaking a holy excercise they besieged the city and took it in one day. Then all the tensions that led to that point were released in a massacre and sacking of Constantinople.

While there is no possible justification for such a tragedy, it was definitely foreseeable and could have been avoided. People from the West were at fault but the Byzantines aristocracy also brought it on themselves.

[Duke of Metz]

Great historical summarization Judeman, the blame certainly is shared amongst both East and West. And as Ichon says, the events were catastrophic the Empire never recovered. I think it would be cool to have such an event in the Early Campaign. Sure it may not have happened if we're recreating history, but the Mongols may never have invaded either. Without the events centering around the Fourth Crusade it is likely that the Empire would've continued to be a powerful force.

[Ichon]

Venetians had earlier been granted trade concessions by ERE and even control of Adriatic trade routes and defense (ERE controlled parts of Italy and Sicily still into the late 1100s) and the competition between Pisa, Genoa, and Venice led to fighting between the Italian factions which spilled over into Constantinople with various native factions supporting each side. Meanwhile the Italians gained control of most of the trade routes because they were willing to pay higher bribes and the decline of ERE navy meant only the Italians had the fleets able to protect trade. Basically the combination of bribes and threats of turning to piracy if not given control of the trade routes forced ERE to abandon a hugely lucrative income to Italians and combined with losses in Anatolia to Turks already had brought ERE low before the 4th Crusade though Manuel revived the fleet enough that Venice had to resort to the machinations behind the 4th Crusade as they lacked enough power to independently confront ERE. The loss of the treasures in Constantinople, population, and tax income was a blow ERE never recovered from.

[Gandalfus]

The events that caused the Mongolian Invasion are inalterable since they happened out the map. However, the 4th crusade can be stopped if Venice and genoa are neutered as powers.

[minhnd6789]

I am playing Early with VH/H option.

Byzantine is the beast. No doubt! @@

[Alexanderos]

Indeed.

[Mihajlo]

+ Elite/professional armies should be buildable only in Constantinople
+ Rise upkeep (a lot) for armies mentioned above
+ Rise rebel respawn around main provinces
= They wont be so dominate whole game

[sevisenturk]

i don't think they are militarily overpowered what makes them overpowered is their economy. i remember of making 10k+ money at the start and after 20-30 turns i already had 250k florins. maybe reducing their starting regions would help i say.

[Duke of Metz]

i don't think they are militarily overpowered what makes them overpowered is their economy. i remember of making 10k+ money at the start and after 20-30 turns i already had 250k florins. maybe reducing their starting regions would help i say.

Yes, but there economy was historically dominant. In 1100 they held the most lands and the richest trade routs. The Byzantines never had a problem getting money, it was more so how they used it (or misused it).

[Ichon]

Yes, but there economy was historically dominant. In 1100 they held the most lands and the richest trade routs. The Byzantines never had a problem getting money, it was more so how they used it (or misused it).

ERE never had a problem getting money until Turks took Anatolia at the same time their fleet decayed and Italians took the trade routes. The tolls from trade between Black and Aegean seas and from Anatolia to Balkans were the single richest annual income of Europe. Venice had gotten itself exempted first, then managed to become the collectors of the tolls (because they had fleets which could enforce it) and as a result the income from tolls to ERE fell by 2/3s.

ERE under Manuel I had stabilized the eastern frontier with Turks and was rebuilding ERE fleet which was a direct threat to Venice. Venice had taken advantage of lack of ERE fleets to capture many formerly ERE islands and put the few cities left in Italy with ties to ERE under threat. Venice barely participated in the 1st Crusade due to the trade relations it had with Muslims but with the successful establishment of Crusader Kingdoms Venice became more active in supporting Crusades particularly as it was a rival of ERE whose relations with Crusaders steadily deteriorated. Genoa and Pisa meanwhile negotiated favorable trade terms and suspension of tariffs with ERE as they were natural rivals with Venice. Most of the Italian colonies in Black Sea were initially Venetian but Genoa took over after the fall of Latin Kingdoms and Greeks back in control of Constantinople because Greeks saw Venice as nearly a hereditary enemy as dangerous as the Turks. Most of the 1st Crusade was supported by Pisan fleets with Genoa transporting individual groups as hired ferrymen. Venetian fleets several times attacked Pisan fleets which were carrying Crusaders and only their power within ERE during the time of the 1st Crusade prevented Pope from excommunicating them as at the time Papacy was very interested in reconciling with eastern Christians.

As ERE began to play Pisa and Genoa against Venice and steadily revoked Venetian trade concessions, Venice sought allies amongst the Crusaders and stirred up trouble by funding revolts and hosting rebels and brigands amongst ERE lands. The final threat for Venice was the rebuilding of an ERE fleet that could threaten Venice and in fact ERE fleets had mounted some successful expeditions against Venice recapturing island harbors and forts shortly before 4th Crusade.

As ERE began to work to reduce power of Venice in early 1100s, Venetian fleets became more active along the coasts of Levant and assisted in the final attacks on remaining Muslim ports in 1123. Genoa and Pisa during this time were involved in several long wars first against Andulusian Muslims and then against each other which meant their fleets were rarely seen in the east giving Venice freedom to become Crusaders main naval support just as Acre, Antioch, and other Crusader ports became the main eastern/Silk Road export centers to Europe bypassing the older trade routes in ERE. Venice calculated that the Pope could not excommunicate them for sacking first Zara (under direct Papal protection) then Constantinople when nobles from half of Europe participated the Pope simply couldn't afford to alienate so many important princes and expect the Crusades or other Papal interests to remain unaffected. Venice in fact received the largest share of loot from Constantinople as price of transport and supply as well as gained control of about 1/3 of the former ERE lands (Adriatic coast, Crete, Aegean islands, and some other territories).

Venice initially aimed only to put an ERE Emperor in power who was favorable to Venetian interests and opposed Pisa and Genoa but the combination of Crusader impatience, ERE incompetence, and finally outright street fighting between citizens and Latins within the city and where an already unpopular Alexios IV could not afford to betray Greeks and had to refuse to hand over guilty parties who had attacked Crusaders and other Latins as well as refused to pay the Crusaders the final amount of money he had promised to be put into power over his uncle Alexios III led to the sack. Alexios IV had in fact paid huge sums both to Venice and Crusaders already but not the promised amounts nor given the military support he had promised.