Phallanx Issue and Hoplite Phallanx

[TheDamned]

Is every faction still going to have phallanx formations like Germans,Pontus because this is wrong.Greeks had the phallanx formations (they are going to be separated to Hoplite and Macedonian) but not all this factions that in Rome did.For example the Germania may have this formation but it was something like spear wall with a different kind of spear and not so disclipined.Where are they going to put Phallanx formations now?



Also take a look at this video and tell me what do you think about the units and the Hoplite formations(mod)

[RagingCroppy]

I don't see what the problem is. CA has stated that both the Greek (shield wall) phalanxes and the Macedonian (sarissa) phalanxes will be present in the game.

The Germans will probably have a shield wall similar to the Greek one.

Also Pontus had heavy Greek influences so giving them phalanxes doesn't seem to be a problem.

As for the video: Units look anachronistic to say the least and Greeks aren't fighting in a phalanx.

[Berry_Punch]

The phalanx was a very popular tactic and formation in that time period. Even Roman triariaii used a similar formation. So it didn't bother me in RTW that so many factions used it. Except for Germania. They should have had shield wall instead of a Greek style phalanx with long spears. Still it is great that CA will add both the Greek and Macedonian phalanx in R2TW.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

As for the video: Units look anachronistic to say the least and Greeks aren't fighting in a phalanx.

I think the point of the mod is to pit the greatest non-contemporary ancient civilizations against eachother, which is an awesome idea, something I much rather play than some boring EB2.

[Metaluis90]

Is every faction still going to have phallanx formations like Germans,Pontus because this is wrong.

Sources.

[TheDamned]

The phallanx formation that Macedonians used was their "invention" their weapon sarissa as RagingCroppy said above was used in this formation.The Germans used something that looked like this but in fact it was a spear wall. A lot of spears in a line.Most of this faction were using formations that were simillar to the Macedonian but not the exact one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation i think this will help

Im not reffering in the time period on this mod just the armament that the some soldiers are carrying.The hoplites are fighting in shield wall formation as they are supposed to the Macedonians were fighting in a Phallanx formation

[RagingCroppy]

The phallanx formation that Macedonians used was their "invention" their weapon sarissa as RagingCroppy said above was used in this formation.The Germans used something that looked like this but in fact it was a spear wall. A lot of spears in a line.Most of this faction were using formations that were simillar to the Macedonian but not the exact one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation i think this will help

This game takes place years after Alexander. Just because the Macedonians invented the sarissa phalanx doesn't mean that they were the only ones who used it. Also keep in mind that in this period the Macedonian empire has been divided into successor states. So Egypt, the Seleucids, and Macedon will use sarissas. Also other Greek states and Pontus would have adopted the formation due to how effective it was.

Also I believe the Roman Triarii should use the Greek phalanx too.

[TheDamned]

The Triarii were using a 3 man deep formation that kinda looked like the phallanx but by no means it was the same they just try to copy part of it

[Biggus Splenus]

The Triarii were using a 3 man deep formation that kinda looked like the phallanx but by no means it was the same they just try to copy part of it

At the time of the 1st Punic War, and after it, the Roman Triarii WERE Hoplite. They fought in same formation as a Greek or Etruscan Hoplite, and where equipped in the same theme too.

Some time before the 2nd Punic War though (time isn't know), the Triarii adopted the same equipment theme as the rest of the legionnaires (replacing the Clipeus with the Scutum, and adopting the same Celto-Italian armour types as the Hastati and Principes). Despite this, they still used their Hastae, and continued to be trained to use the Greek/Etruscan style phalanx.

So it actually was, by all means, a copy of it.

SERVED!

[Col. Tartleton]

Phalanx = Close Order + High Discipline.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Phalanx = Close Order + High Discipline.

fix'd

@Manuel The other way around. While the Triarii were generally not outfitted like classical hoplites by the game's time period, they were the only ones who retained the classic shieldwall, the front ranks preferring a more open formation.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

Do those hoplites have a shieldwall formation abillity?

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Not a Roman army expert here but the way I understand it the triarii were armed like hoplites (spear, hoplon shield, grieves, linen or metal breastplates) but didn't necessarily fight in the close phalanx formation which utilized the 'othismos' as its main feature (usually 8 men deep with the lines before the 1st one pushing).

[Manuel I Komnenos]

I'm referring to the Camillan era, though that's assuming that the game starts before the 2nd Punic War.

[Eofor]

Is every faction still going to have phallanx formations like Germans,Pontus because this is wrong.

Pontus was specifically referred to as having pikemen in ancient sources.

"The foreigners (Pontian soldiers) held their pikes out in front of them and tried to preserve an unbroken line by holding their shields together, while the Romans immediately discarded their javelins and drew their swords to deflect the pikes and force a way through to the enemy as quickly as possible."

Plutarch, Life of Sulla, chapter 18.

Also, both Tacitus and Caesar (an eye witness account) write of Germanic warriors fighting in phalanxes, although at this point phalanx was just a generic term for any dense infantry formation.

[Orlorin]

Pontus was specifically referred to as having pikemen in ancient sources.

"The foreigners (Pontian soldiers) held their pikes out in front of them and tried to preserve an unbroken line by holding their shields together, while the Romans immediately discarded their javelins and drew their swords to deflect the pikes and force a way through to the enemy as quickly as possible."

Plutarch, Life of Sulla, chapter 18.

So the more interesting question is whether Roman Legions actually attacked phalanx formations frontally, and forced thier way through. Did the Romans attack Phalaxes from the front without gaps and the like?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

So the more interesting question is whether Roman Legions actually attacked phalanx formations frontally, and forced thier way through. Did the Romans attack Phalaxes from the front without gaps and the like?

Attack they did, because in a large, unbroken line of men, gaps will eventually start to appear and the onslaught will get through.

[Orlorin]

Attack they did, because in a large, unbroken line of men, gaps will eventually start to appear and the onslaught will get through.

Thats very unscientific, how can you say that on flat ground gaps must appear, its possible with well trained troops to maintain a line. I was more asking whether the specialized tactics described in later Roman sources actually worked? Can you really fix the point of a sarrisa and hack it up?

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Thats very unscientific, how can you say that on flat ground gaps must appear, its possible with well trained troops to maintain a line. I was more asking whether the specialized tactics described in later Roman sources actually worked? Can you really fix the point of a sarrisa and hack it up?

I don't know about this battle, but generally gaps can appear in a phalanx even in flat terrain, assuming that the initial assault is fast and the coordination between the various regiments is problematic.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Thats very unscientific, how can you say that on flat ground gaps must appear, its possible with well trained troops to maintain a line.

Well trained troops can retain the line longer. The point is to hold formation long enough for the cavalry to win out on the flanks. Crowd dynamics dictate that eventually the thousands of men will start breaking up, especially against the fluid Roman infantry - which might push forward more in some sections than in others, or fall back at different rates - which all works to the detriment of the phalanx, given enough time.

I was more asking whether the specialized tactics described in later Roman sources actually worked? Can you really fix the point of a sarrisa and hack it up?

Doubt it. Lopping heads off spears is usually not easy, and pikes might counteract this with special reinforcements near the head. Since Japanese and European pikes developed those independently in the 15th century, there's no reason to assume that the Macedonians did not, at least to some extent.