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Thread: Discussion "Imperial Uncle"

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    Default Discussion "Imperial Uncle"

    By Gig: thread split from here.

    Yes, any Liu family member could become an "imperial uncle" and wield great influence over the Han loyalists, or overthrow the emperor and start their own off shot.
    In the RTW version "religions" meant a particular "vision" or "allegiance". That could either be "Restore the Han Dynasty" , "Daoist Revolution" or "A New Order".
    I was thinking about converting the papacy into an "inner imperial court" with the Pope being an attendant. That attendant could force the Emperor to start a campaign against a faction (Crusade).
    Last edited by Gigantus; September 20, 2012 at 08:54 PM. Reason: info about split
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronos Impera View Post
    Yes, any Liu family member could become an "imperial uncle" and wield great influence over the Han loyalists, or overthrow the emperor and start their own off shot.
    In the RTW version "religions" meant a particular "vision" or "allegiance". That could either be "Restore the Han Dynasty" , "Daoist Revolution" or "A New Order".
    I was thinking about converting the papacy into an "inner imperial court" with the Pope being an attendant. That attendant could force the Emperor to start a campaign against a faction (Crusade).
    The 'imperial uncle' would be something to look more into.
    I carried the 'religion' use over into the mod here.
    The use of crusades is something I am not so keen about - more often then not it messes up game play. Particularly with multiple religions in use like here. I am going to put the requirement for 'imams' to max piety to avoid having having 'jihaads' as well. Else I am going to remove islam as a religion, although changing all the traits and ancs linked to that isn't something I am looking forward to.

    {catholic}Reestablish the Han Dynasty
    {heretic}Foreign Culture
    {islam}Pacification
    {orthodox}Fractionation
    {pagan}New Order
    {daoism}Daoism
    {revolution}Daoist Revolution










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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronos Impera View Post
    Scripts which can be altered to improve the gaming experience.
    Kalmar Union script from the Teutonic Campaign
    Could be used to simulate the Restoration of the Han Dynasty. By that you have to keep an open faction slot with its icon.
    Liu Bei, Liu Biao, Liu Zhang could all benefit from this script.
    Why only them? Cao Cao was a staunch Han loyalist and was the only reason the Han was even around for Cao Pi to later usurp. Also Yuan Shao's goal was to take in the Emperor as well and to keep the Han dynasty alive under his protection (which was the reason he declared war on Cao Cao and the Battle of Guandu was fought).

    By seizing a decent portion of the empire and saving the Emperor (by claiming Luo Yang)...
    Why Luo Yang? By 194 Luo Yang had already been razed and the Emperor and Imperial Court had been relocated to Chang An. In 197 they would be moved to Xu Chang under the protection of Cao Cao.

    they could earn the title of "Imperial Protector", and their faction becomes "Han" with the appropriate symbols and uniforms.
    Imperial Protector was a title not restricted to members of the royal family; it was, in fact, a commendary-level bureaucratic rank (like Governor or Inspector). For example, Han Sui, Jin Shang, and Huangfu Song all held Imperial Protector ranks, in Xizhou, Yangzhou, and Jizhou respectively.

    If such a script was used, in which someone is the Han's "protector", a more correct title for such a situation would be Prime Minister.

    Yes, any Liu family member could become an "imperial uncle" and wield great influence over the Han loyalists, or overthrow the emperor and start their own off shot.
    An "imperial uncle" idea like this would not work, as it is highly fictional along with other reasons I detailed above. Liu Bei was the only one refered to as Imperial Uncle (and he received it after a meeting with the Emperor, not becoming his protector), however the only mention of this is in Sanguo Yanyi and not any historical sources (meaning it was made up by LGZ).
    Last edited by Seether; September 17, 2012 at 11:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    Why only them? Cao Cao was a staunch Han loyalist and was the only reason the Han was even around for Cao Pi to later usurp. Also Yuan Shao's goal was to take in the Emperor as well and to keep the Han dynasty alive under his protection (which was the reason he declared war on Cao Cao and the Battle of Guandu was fought).
    Very true, however the Liu family were actually related to the Emperor, so for the purpose of making that relationship mean something I agree it should be unique to them.

    Cao Cao, even putting aside the hatchet job on his character that is the novel, did not have that same connection to the Han.

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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar View Post
    Very true, however the Liu family were actually related to the Emperor, so for the purpose of making that relationship mean something I agree it should be unique to them.

    Cao Cao, even putting aside the hatchet job on his character that is the novel, did not have that same connection to the Han.
    That shouldn't matter, as only one Liu ever used his (debateable) lineage to the imperial family to any sort of advantage. Liu Yan, Liu Zhang, Liu Yu, Liu Biao, Liu Cong, Liu Qi, Liu Dai, and Liu Yao (all major or minor warlords) never used their lineage in the way that you are saying; Liu Bei was the only during the entire era. In the eyes of the Chinese at that time, being an imperial relative or not mattered very little in terms of actual legitimacy or legitimate support of the Han, so restricting such to Liu's wouldn't make any sense in the context that is being discussed. To the Chinese, Cao Cao or Yuan Shao or someone else, if they were powerful enough to protect or usurp the dynasty, would be just as legitimate as someone of the actual imperial line.
    Last edited by Seether; September 18, 2012 at 05:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    My point with Luo Yang was that both Luo Yang and Chang'an ware traditional strongholds of the Imperial Court during the Han dynasty. You just couldn't move the Emperor wherever your power-base was. You could have the Emperor as an ancillary, since it is only a puppet. Then give its holder a title, which attracts "edicts". These edicts can be passed to its subordinates.
    If the title has been achieved, a "reform" takes place.

    Two events shaped the Chinese mentality
    - The decadence of the hereditary dynasties Shang and Xia marked by bloodshed and uprisings from court officials
    - The legacy of Yu Yin

    Cao Cao had no reason to overthrow Emperor Xian because he had no fault. Also he couldn't just use Yu Yin as precedent because he had a lowly origin (son of a Merchant and a Enoch) and had done nothing to warrant his rule. Also he couldn't betray without warranting betrayal of himself in the process (Dong Zhuo betrayed He Jin and the Dowager Empress, by murdering the Emperor and received scorn). Cao Cao's main goal was to unify the country than pursue his ambitions. The Hans ware simply a tool for that purpose, like the promotion system.

    Imperial "Uncle" was also bestowed upon the Duke of Wen during the Spring and Autumn period, and that was a binding position, which didn't allow you to usurp the throne. An uncle in Confucian China couldn't molest its nephew. Liu Biao and Liu Zhang had little to no influence in the Dong Zhuo affair. Liu Biao had his problems with the Sun family. And Chengdu was a border region, which had to be protected from the barbarians. These warlords couldn't just get involved in the Central Plains. Liu Bei had vigor and ambition. But the title of Imperial "Uncle" was used before. Imperial Protector was issued to officials outside the imperial family like "Tao Qian".
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronos Impera View Post
    Also he couldn't betray without warranting betrayal of himself in the process (Dong Zhuo betrayed He Jin and the Dowager Empress, by murdering the Emperor and received scorn). Cao Cao's main goal was to unify the country than pursue his ambitions. The Hans ware simply a tool for that purpose, like the promotion system.
    Actually He Jin is just about the only person that Dong Zhuo didn't betray, in that he was marching his troops to support the regent in his dispute with the eunuchs. Also the regional warlords had already risen against Dong by the time he finally murdered the deposed Emperor.

    I think the rest of your points are valid, though. Cao Cao being a level-headed planner would probably have realised that he could have effective control over China without having to take the excessive step of killing a rightful (well, in the circumstances) ruler. The son of a merchant suddenly standing up and explicitly claiming himself as Emperor would have gone down like a lead balloon, and quite probably seen the formation of a new coalition against him.

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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronos Impera View Post
    My point with Luo Yang was that both Luo Yang and Chang'an ware traditional strongholds of the Imperial Court during the Han dynasty.
    Chang An would make sense, but Luo Yang wouldn't, because by 194 (game start) Luo Yang was razed and was no longer a stronghold or seat of the Imperial Court.

    You just couldn't move the Emperor wherever your power-base was.
    Yes you could. That exact thing was done nearly half a dozen times, starting with Dong Zhuo, in a span of about 25 years.

    Cao Cao had no reason to overthrow Emperor Xian because he had no fault. Also he couldn't just use Yu Yin as precedent because he had a lowly origin (son of a Merchant and a Enoch) and had done nothing to warrant his rule. Also he couldn't betray without warranting betrayal of himself in the process.
    Not true. Cao Pi was in exactly the same position as Cao Cao (Chancellor and Duke of Wei), yet he was able to overthrow Xiandi and was viewed as entirely legitimate on that account. They didn't need to have a "reason", all they needed was the power, prestige, and ability to do so.

    As far as his origins, saying it was lowly is a huge understatement. His grandfather Cao Teng was a eunuch, yes, but eunuchs in the Imperial Court were extremely powerful during this time with Cao Teng being a particularly powerful and influential one. His adoptive father, Cao Song, was not a merchant, he was a high-ranking official in the Han Court. Official history says nothing about him being a merchant, but it does say that Emperor Ling appointed Cao Song as Grand Minister of Agriculture. So Cao Cao was not some simple lowly merchant's son, he was the member of a line of powerful and influential court officials, which in turn kills your argument about him.

    (Dong Zhuo betrayed He Jin and the Dowager Empress, by murdering the Emperor and received scorn)
    Dong Zhuo never betrayed He Jin. He Jin was dead before Empress Dowager He was murdered.

    Cao Cao's main goal was to unify the country than pursue his ambitions. The Hans ware simply a tool for that purpose, like the promotion system.
    I know. I said that 2 posts ago. But to clarify, Cao Cao was loyal to the Han and wanted to unify the country under the banner of the Han, not his own. That much has been established by SGZ and ZZTJ.

    Imperial "Uncle" was also bestowed upon the Duke of Wen during the Spring and Autumn period, and that was a binding position, which didn't allow you to usurp the throne. An uncle in Confucian China couldn't molest its nephew.
    But this game isn't about the Spring and Autumn Period, it is about the Three Kingdoms era. No similar situation happened during the 3K era, as the Imperial Uncle stuff with Liu Bei was made up by LGZ (it was fictional).

    Liu Biao and Liu Zhang had little to no influence in the Dong Zhuo affair. Liu Biao had his problems with the Sun family. And Chengdu was a border region, which had to be protected from the barbarians. These warlords couldn't just get involved in the Central Plains. Liu Bei had vigor and ambition. But the title of Imperial "Uncle" was used before.
    Not true. Liu Biao was appointed to Jingzhou by Dong Zhuo and fought against Yuan Shu, who was an enemy of Dong Zhuo. And, while Dong Zhuo was alive (and until 197), the Sun family were vassals of Yuan Shu and fought against Liu Biao (and others) at Yuan Shu's behest; Sun Jian was killed fighting Liu Biao as a vassal of Yuan Shu. So, yes, Liu Biao did get involved in the Central Plains and had influence in the Dong Zhuo affair.

    And Liu Zhang wasn't the family head while Dong Zhuo was alive, so that point is moot, however Liu Yan was involved with Dong Zhuo and the Imperial Court in Chang An and even had two of his sons in the Court. After Dong Zhuo was killed, Liu Yan and Ma Teng jointly turned on Li Jue, which cause Liu Fan and Liu Dan (Liu Yan's eldest sons) to be executed.

    Imperial Protector was issued to officials outside the imperial family like "Tao Qian".
    I know. I said that 2 posts ago.
    Last edited by Seether; September 19, 2012 at 09:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    The problem with Cao Cao's inheritance was that the enochs ware despised by the Han gentry by the time he reached any sort of problem. Remember the Regular Attendants fates? They ware all killed. How could you promote yourself as the nephew of an enoch when the Regular Attendants killed the Imperial Protector and abused their power in the past?
    By the time of Cao Pi the Regular Attendants Affair was almost forgotten and Cao Cao had done much to secure the family reputation. Cao Cao had to play the Yu Yin card to get legitimacy. Cao Pi had no reason to keep the facade anymore, considering the work Cao Cao had done, so he used the Yao and Shun precedent.

    My point about the Imperial Uncle was that such a position could block usurpation from within the Liu family and would certainly have been used by HanXianDi as a anecdotal "bone".

    In the novel Liu Biao kills Sun Jian at the request of Yuan Shao. Considering that he had to deceive Sun Jian, his power was less than up to par with that of a "vassal".
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronos Impera View Post
    The problem with Cao Cao's inheritance was that the enochs ware despised by the Han gentry by the time he reached any sort of problem. Remember the Regular Attendants fates? They ware all killed. How could you promote yourself as the nephew of an enoch when the Regular Attendants killed the Imperial Protector and abused their power in the past?
    If Cao Cao's ties to the Ten Regular Attendants would have been an issue, then why didn't they cause any problems for him at any other point in time? If you remember, Cao Cao issued the edicts to form the coalition against Dong Zhuo and also Xiandi fled to Cao Cao after escaping Chang An. Cao Cao's ties to the eunuchs were well known but they never caused any problems for him, so why speculate if they would, when there isn't any proof or circumstance that they could?

    My point about the Imperial Uncle was that such a position could block usurpation from within the Liu family and would certainly have been used by HanXianDi as a anecdotal "bone".
    But it never was used, at all, during the era. Making a script for something that never happened doesn't make sense, especially when what you are proposing can easily be mended with what I said about Prime Minister.

    In the novel Liu Biao kills Sun Jian at the request of Yuan Shao. Considering that he had to deceive Sun Jian, his power was less than up to par with that of a "vassal".
    The novel, Sanguo Yanyi, is mostly fictional. Historically Sun Jian was a vassal of Yuan Shu. He fought in the coalition as a vassal of Yuan Shu and attacked Liu Biao as a vassal of Yuan Shu. Sun Ce continued this and invaded Jiang Dong as a vassal of Yuan Shu; it wan't until after Yuan Shu declared himself Emperor that Sun Ce cut ties with him.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Cao Cao went to extraordinary lengths to promote himself as a better alternative to the Han dynasty. He pardoned Yellow Scarves who rose up because the enochs ruled the inner court. The Zhang brothers' rebellion was partly due to the Enoch meddling in court affairs. Cao Cao had alined himself with He Jin even though He Jin had enmity towards the enochs.
    Remember the Regular Attendants double crossed a lot of people in the Inner Court. Cao Cao had to work with this people. Cao Cao had to balance between popular trust and court support.
    Why pardon Yellow Scarves when they preached revolution as a Han minister. It makes no sense.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    This is getting off-topic, but I'll bite.

    Cao Cao pardoning the Yellow Turbans made a lot of sense and it was done for a very simple reason: to expand his military force. Cao Cao did not defeat the Yellow Turbans in Qing until 192, with Bao Xin unfortunately being killed, and with his victory he found himself with tens of thousands of prisoners. Remember that by 192, Dong Zhuo had already razed Luo Yang and fled to Chang An, the coalition had entirely dissolved, and the country had destabilized into a full-blown civil war. Every warlord and regional leader was out for himself and conducting regional wars, with Cao Cao as no exception. By 192 the Rebellion, except for a few holdouts, was effectively defeated and there was no central government to either fight the rebels, control the regional leaders, or control the country's affairs. Cao Cao pardoned the surrendered rebels solely to add tens of thousands of experienced soldiers into his military force, which he needed if he was to survive the regional conflicts all around him, especially with the powerful Tao Qian, Yuan Shu, and Yuan Shao on his doorstep.

    But I do not at all agree with the sentiment that he offered himself as an alternative to the Han. Cao Cao did nothing but support the Han and its interests and was the only reason it survived as long as it did. Whether you agree that he used Xiandi solely as a tool or not for his own personal gain, the fact remains that he did not depose Xiandi, he gave the Han legitimate power under his protection, and he served Xiandi as a minister of the Han. Like I said, if he wanted to depose Xiandi and replace the Han with Wei, he had more than ample time, opportunity, power, and legitimacy to do so, yet he never did.

    EDIT: However I will say that I like the idea of having Xiandi as an ancillary, however it shouldn't be restricted to only members of the Liu clans as it wouldn't make any sense. Possible requirements to "use" the Xiandi ancillary could be:
    - if the FL has the ancillary (once obtained, automatically gets passed to next FL?)
    - controls Chang An or Xu Chang (maybe even Luo Yang)
    - has a specific (top tier palace?) building in either of those settlements
    - controls x (30?) settlements

    They can then get a "decision" whether to support Xiandi and the Han, and have their faction changed to "Han", or depose Xiandi and get some other type of bonus.
    Last edited by Seether; September 20, 2012 at 07:31 PM.
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